I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

CaveLamb wrote:
I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.



Make that 13 to 15?


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...
CaveLamb wrote:
I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.



Make that 13 to 15?


Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you should
be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As you know,
the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes into play and
this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards, even the lowest
one, because of the increased velocity across the windward side of the
mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham cringle? If so you can flatten
it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham.

That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back. You
just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and the
lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure area on
the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the air tends to
stagnate.


Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...
CaveLamb wrote:
I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.


Make that 13 to 15?


Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you should
be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As you know,
the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes into play and
this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards, even the lowest
one, because of the increased velocity across the windward side of the
mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham cringle? If so you can flatten
it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham.

That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back. You
just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and the
lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure area on
the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the air tends to
stagnate.


Wilbur Hubbard



Good points.

I'm studying the main first because of the new shape.
It really does have noticeably deeper camber.

And yes, absolutely, will look at it with the genny up before deciding
anything drastic.

The old main didn't do this. I could get all three streaming and not
be hanging on the edge of a luff.


This boat was designed with a full battened main.
Very flat (by comparison) with fine entry and exit slopes...
Also a pain in the butt sometimes.


The genoa, which I thought was 130% is actually 143%.
I'm hoping we will get to that today or tomorrow.

Film at eleven?



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...
CaveLamb wrote:
I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.


Make that 13 to 15?


Next time don't do mainsail only. Use a headsail, too. 13 to 15 you
should be able to hank on a 120 or 130% genny. 100% without a doubt! As
you know, the two sails on a sloop work as a team. The slot effect comes
into play and this will allow the mainsail telltales to stream backwards,
even the lowest one, because of the increased velocity across the
windward side of the mainsail. Does the mainsail have a Cunningham
cringle? If so you can flatten it some with a downhaul on the Cunningham.

That lower telltale on the mainsail can be a touch nut to stream back.
You just might find the optimal is the upper telltales streaming back and
the lower one fluttering or going around forward into the low pressure
area on the leeward side of the main there the chord is longest and the
air tends to stagnate.


Wilbur Hubbard

Good points.

I'm studying the main first because of the new shape.
It really does have noticeably deeper camber.

And yes, absolutely, will look at it with the genny up before deciding
anything drastic.

The old main didn't do this. I could get all three streaming and not
be hanging on the edge of a luff.


This boat was designed with a full battened main.
Very flat (by comparison) with fine entry and exit slopes...
Also a pain in the butt sometimes.


The genoa, which I thought was 130% is actually 143%.
I'm hoping we will get to that today or tomorrow.

Film at eleven?


A full batten mainsail will handle greater wind speeds before you have to
reef because it is flatter and it will point a little better for the same
reason. You also notice luffing way less because of the battens. A non-full
batten will pull better in the lighter winds. A mainsail with a little more
belly to it will probably be a little faster in 10-15 mph winds. But there
should be a couple of ways to flatten it somewhat as the wind pipes up. Thus
the Cunningham plus just pulling it tighter at the three corners. My new
mainsail has a little more belly than the original but it does have a
Cunningham cringle. Also I had it made a few inches shorter along the foot
so I can outhaul it a little more before it fetches up against the outhaul
hardware. It is a shelf foot the shelf of which actually closes as the
outhaul is pulled tight. Relaxing the outhaul allows more belly back into it
along about the lower 1/3 of the sail.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 23 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

I think he thought they might be too flat.
This is not a common boat.

Anyway, things went better today.
I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that
wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort
to get going I didn't notice it.

LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up
all we did was luff.

Nice light air drive, though.

Dorothy is driving. On instruments!
It's 103 today and the sun was fierce.
So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up.
I think she did really well though, considering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4

I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a
big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35.
40 - maybe...

A bit of history on this...
This is a replacement main sail by the same loft.
It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well.
A bit short of hoist and long on the foot.
(even though I measured the rig for them)
So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants.

In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had!
And it could hold together at 30 off.
I didn't have the gps tracking that day.
(18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!)
So I don't know how much leeway she made that close.
Probably horrendous...
But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots.

A second problem came clearer today.
it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit.
Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit?
When I pulled it forward it did look better.

Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend.

And the sail does look good at 45 degrees.

So how bad can it be???


The clew ring on the jib is bigger.
Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on.
I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after
a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself.
It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed.
I think it's ok now.

Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells.
Just like it was supposed to...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:43:46 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Bruce wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:02:11 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

I have a brand new suit of sails.
I'm trying to learn how they are going to trim -
and/or if I need to have any changes made.

Yesterday, winds 13 to 15, under mainsail only...

I could get all three tell tails on the leach to stream
only as the luff started to shiver (sometimes fairly deep).

The sailmakers said that they had added some shape.
I'm wondering if this may mean too much belly in this sail.

Why did the sailmaker add belly to the sail? Something you said?

Cheers,

Bruce

I think he thought they might be too flat.
This is not a common boat.

Anyway, things went better today.
I had a conflict between the main halyard and topping lift that
wasn't letting the main all the way up yesterday. In an effort
to get going I didn't notice it.

LOTS better today, but the few times I tried to pinch way up
all we did was luff.

Nice light air drive, though.

Dorothy is driving. On instruments!
It's 103 today and the sun was fierce.
So the shade is up even if it means she can't see up.
I think she did really well though, considering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lBYPMJbul4

I did try to pinch up way high once. But all that happened was a
big luff. I can't hold 30 degrees off. Probably not even 35.
40 - maybe...

A bit of history on this...
This is a replacement main sail by the same loft.
It was made to factory specs and didn't fit all that well.
A bit short of hoist and long on the foot.
(even though I measured the rig for them)
So it looked like the red haired step kid in high water pants.

In spite of all that, it was the best shaped sail I've ever had!
And it could hold together at 30 off.
I didn't have the gps tracking that day.
(18 knots wind and a lot of meat on the rail!)
So I don't know how much leeway she made that close.
Probably horrendous...
But she WAS still pulling and making 2 knots.

A second problem came clearer today.
it looks like the shelf is mis-formed a bit.
Might that be because the tack is sliding aft a bit?
When I pulled it forward it did look better.

Last few pics - we do have the spec 2" of mast bend.

And the sail does look good at 45 degrees.

So how bad can it be???


The clew ring on the jib is bigger.
Bigger enough that he shackle would not go on.
I made a soft shackle for it yesterday, but she spit it out after
a couple of tacks. Today I lengthened the shackle and fed it back on itself.
It held even through a bit of flogging when the sheet grabbed.
I think it's ok now.

Like Wilbur said, the jib tamed the main tells.
Just like it was supposed to...

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

http://siteworld.pl/_/o.gif II'm angry, I'll beat!! http://siteworld.pl/_/oo.gif

Bruce wrote:

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side
or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail.


Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out.

That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!



Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. 61 now
(She is considerably younger)
But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more...


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress