"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that the
tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of the
mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast slugs.
This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few inches aft on
the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially cut and the tack
cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of boom
slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope the from
clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied out all
the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When the
outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it appear
to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches difference of foot
length between flat sail and full sail.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it
holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack
of the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the
mast slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed
by the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is
bellied out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no
wrinkles. When the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several
folds that make it appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about
six inches difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail
MUST be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not
suitable because it doesn't stretch enough.



And another thing yet. Before you put the sail cover on make sure you relax
the outhaul all the way so the sail foot doesn't become permanently
stretched.

"sealpejerne" wrote in message
...

[image: http://siteworld.pl/_/o.gif] II'm angry, I'll beat!! [image:
http://siteworld.pl/_/oo.gif]


That second one looks just like what I do to Bruce in Bangkok. LOL!

Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...




--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...


My boom has a similar arrangement but with one caveat. The inverted-u tack
ring on mine can be reversed. Doing so will effectively move the tack
cringle fore or aft about half an inch. You might try that little trick. The
reason for this arrangement with the tack connection moved somewhat aft on
the boom gooseneck was due to the fact that the boom, when end-boom sheeting
is employed, can be used as a roller reefing boom with the sail winding up
around the boom. But, mine has mid-boom sheeting and a traveler above the
companionway that precludes the wind-up function because of the mid-boom
sheeting bales on the boom. But, the boom can rotate on the gooseneck and
the gooseneck can also slide up and down in the sail track. I have the same
situation as you do when lowering the sail. The boom sort of hangs on the
lowest sail slug against the slug stop in the top of the gate with the boom
about a foot lower pulling on what's left of the sail. So, since my
gooseneck slides up and down in the track, I simply use the downhaul line as
an uphaul to raise it up to the bottom of the gate. No more stretching of
the sail and a more compact sail stack under the sail cover.

The best thing about the sliding gooseneck is when hauling up the sail I use
no downhaul so I just pull the sail up to the top black line on the mast.
The gooseneck slides up to almost the bottom of the gate. Then after making
fast the halyard I push down by hand on the boom at the gooseneck until the
luff is properly tensioned according to prevailing winds and cleat off the
downhaul line to keep it in place.. Simple as pie and no messing with
winches to get the luff tight enough.

Wilbur Hubbard

Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...


My boom has a similar arrangement but with one caveat. The inverted-u tack
ring on mine can be reversed. Doing so will effectively move the tack
cringle fore or aft about half an inch. You might try that little trick. The
reason for this arrangement with the tack connection moved somewhat aft on
the boom gooseneck was due to the fact that the boom, when end-boom sheeting
is employed, can be used as a roller reefing boom with the sail winding up
around the boom. But, mine has mid-boom sheeting and a traveler above the
companionway that precludes the wind-up function because of the mid-boom
sheeting bales on the boom. But, the boom can rotate on the gooseneck and
the gooseneck can also slide up and down in the sail track. I have the same
situation as you do when lowering the sail. The boom sort of hangs on the
lowest sail slug against the slug stop in the top of the gate with the boom
about a foot lower pulling on what's left of the sail. So, since my
gooseneck slides up and down in the track, I simply use the downhaul line as
an uphaul to raise it up to the bottom of the gate. No more stretching of
the sail and a more compact sail stack under the sail cover.

The best thing about the sliding gooseneck is when hauling up the sail I use
no downhaul so I just pull the sail up to the top black line on the mast.
The gooseneck slides up to almost the bottom of the gate. Then after making
fast the halyard I push down by hand on the boom at the gooseneck until the
luff is properly tensioned according to prevailing winds and cleat off the
downhaul line to keep it in place.. Simple as pie and no messing with
winches to get the luff tight enough.

Wilbur Hubbard



Small world...
My Capri 18 had exactly the same system you described, except for the rotating
boom. But the gooseneck did ride in the sail slot. I think that's common
among trailer sailors so the boom can be easily unshipped when dropping the
mast. That downhaul line was so handy. Didn't even need a Cunningham.


But on the 26 the boom is fixed and my tack fitting is the same pinned either
way. It flops around freely until the sail shows up and holds it in place.

I need to make a gate set to close off that slot.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.


Willie, Wrong again.

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.

Cheers,

Bruce

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 10:57:34 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Bruce wrote:

True the jib effects the main but the main should set properly with no
jib up. But I'm a bit confused. Were you getting horizontal wrinkles?
In which case it is probably the luff tension; or vertical wrinkles in
which case you can try more outhaul or maybe more sheet tension.

Clew ring on the jib too big? A cruising sailor attaches the sheets to
the clew with knots :-)

As for the old sail if it was too long in the foot it is pretty easy
to cut and re sew the leech. In fact changing the curve of any of the
edges is a pretty painless job.

In the movie I can't see any luff telltails but except for the foot
looking a bit loose the sail looks good to me. But you said that you
had the outhaul slacked off.

Is that your wife? And here I thought you told me that you were some
kind of old retired guy.

By the way, if you want to learn about boating find a copy of "How to
build a Tin Canoe", by Robb White, mostly about sailing off the
Georgia, N. Florida coast but a really good read. The author is dead
now but you can get the flavor of the book by reading articles on his
web site http://www.robbwhite.com/

Cheers,

Bruce

Aris (the fellow who owns Mariner Sails) said it was easy to change one side
or the other, but not both at the same time. So he just cut a new sail.

That is true in one sense. As the sail isn't flat measuring the curve
of the leech and luff is a bit iffy. Usually you stretch the side you
are changing so as to lay as flat as possible and then mark and cut
it. So I agree with the sail maker (lucky that :-). I was actually
thinking of the sewing rather then the measuring, marking and cutting.


Thanks, Bruce. We'll keep working at it and get it figured out.

That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!

Dorthy smiled and said to tell you that I'm not all THAT old. 61 now
(She is considerably younger)
But I don't recognize the old man in the mirror any more...

Well, she would, wouldn't she :-?

Cheers,

Bruce

On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...

The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are
making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might
incorporate that. See
http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18
for an example.

If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate
a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle.

If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I
wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting
holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I
wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is
designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one
additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't
intended.

Cheers,

Bruce