In article .com,
llid says...

"CaveLamb" wrote in message
...
Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...


My boom has a similar arrangement but with one caveat. The inverted-u tack
ring on mine can be reversed. Doing so will effectively move the tack
cringle fore or aft about half an inch. You might try that little trick. The
reason for this arrangement with the tack connection moved somewhat aft on
the boom gooseneck was due to the fact that the boom, when end-boom sheeting
is employed, can be used as a roller reefing boom with the sail winding up
around the boom. But, mine has mid-boom sheeting and a traveler above the
companionway that precludes the wind-up function because of the mid-boom
sheeting bales on the boom. But, the boom can rotate on the gooseneck and
the gooseneck can also slide up and down in the sail track. I have the same
situation as you do when lowering the sail. The boom sort of hangs on the
lowest sail slug against the slug stop in the top of the gate with the boom
about a foot lower pulling on what's left of the sail. So, since my
gooseneck slides up and down in the track, I simply use the downhaul line as
an uphaul to raise it up to the bottom of the gate. No more stretching of
the sail and a more compact sail stack under the sail cover.

The best thing about the sliding gooseneck is when hauling up the sail I use
no downhaul so I just pull the sail up to the top black line on the mast.
The gooseneck slides up to almost the bottom of the gate. Then after making
fast the halyard I push down by hand on the boom at the gooseneck until the
luff is properly tensioned according to prevailing winds and cleat off the
downhaul line to keep it in place.. Simple as pie and no messing with
winches to get the luff tight enough.

That's a good system. I had it on my Windrose 18. The advantage of
that system is that when you push down on the boom, you don't have to
overcome all the friction in the tracks and the weight of the sail to
get more tension at the bottom end of the luff. Gravity is working for
you, not against you!


Mark Borgerson

Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...

The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are
making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might
incorporate that. See
http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18
for an example.

If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate
a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle.

If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I
wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting
holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I
wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is
designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one
additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't
intended.

Cheers,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

No, it's not loose footed.
I'm far too hung-up for a loose footed main sail. :0

Yes. I understand what you are saying about an unexpected stress concentration.
That's why I'll ask the loft about it before doing anything.

My gooseneck is similar to the one you showed, except that the inverted U-ie
is a bit further aft on mine...

Sorry this pics is more from underneath.
But it is in focus!
Can you see that extra inch aft?

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/DSCF0080a.JPG

By the way, the quote on the replacement fitting was $275.
That's actually not bat for what I'd get.
But it's a bit over budget at the moment.

I patched up the old fitting and pt it back in service.
For now...




--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it
holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack
of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was
especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed
by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and
to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be
kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is
bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles.
When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail
MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.


Willie, Wrong again.

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
trim

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot.

Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you
think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers,
etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same
reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely
stretch or don't stretch at all.

When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not
pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at
all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed
and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around
the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is
hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt
rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was
pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was
strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by
the very nature of the material.

Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have
no intimate knowledge about.

Wilbur Hubbard




The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 10:48:40 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
trim

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot.

Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you
think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers,
etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same
reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely
stretch or don't stretch at all.

When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not
pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at
all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed
and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around
the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is
hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt
rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was
pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was
strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by
the very nature of the material.

Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have
no intimate knowledge about.

Wilbur Hubbard

You are exactly right. Dacron does not stretch very much. Thus, adding
a nylon rope wouldn't accomplish anything which is why roping is done
with dacron rope - usually 3 strand stuff.

You seem to have some half arsed idea of what roping on a sail does -
it limits the stretch of the sail and adds strength. Adding a nylon
rope is about as sensible an idea as adding a rubber band would be..

Just as you did with the electrical and refrigeration problem you
didn't understand how the systems work but that didn't prevent you
from trying to sound like an expert and planting your foot firmly in
your mouth; once again. I keep telling you, keeping your mouth shut
might make people wonder if you are a fool, but opening it surely
convinces them.





The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard



Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 01:31:05 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:21:25 -0500, CaveLamb
wrote:

Copy all that, Wilbur.

I have a boltrope with a slug at each end of the foot.

The one I think I may need to add would be at the foot of the luff.
(I think you had the picture of it right from what you said)

The tack/luff pulls aft below the bottom luff slug, which is a bit
over a foot up from the tack corner.

The tack fitting is an inverted U thing that pins through the
gooseneck laterally. It can swing fore/aft. So any pressure
on the sail, or tension on the outhaul, pulls the bottom tack corner
of the sail aft of vertical (of the rest of the luff).

That seems to be the source of the odd wrinkle at the aft end
of the shelf.

I tied a line through the tack ring, around the mast, and pulled
the foot forward an inch or two. That made the shelf look a lot
better.

Will take a closer look at it in the next few days and discuss it
with the sail loft before messing with it though...

The tack fitting is often is built into the boom gooseneck. If you are
making a new fitting (I thought I saw you on another group) you might
incorporate that. See
http://www.sparcraft.fr/fr/produits/...1.jpg?54682,18
for an example.

If you reef using only a reefing line on the leech you can incorporate
a hook at the gooseneck for the luff reefing cringle.

If you are using a loose footed sail (the movie wasn't very clear) I
wouldn't use a slug at either end, assuming that the gooseneck fitting
holds the tack properly. Unless the sail maker tells you can I
wouldn't use a slug on the clew as usually a loose footed sail is
designed to be attached only at the tack and the clew. Adding one
additional attaching point might concentrate stress where it wasn't
intended.

Cheers,

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

No, it's not loose footed.
I'm far too hung-up for a loose footed main sail. :0

Yes. I understand what you are saying about an unexpected stress concentration.
That's why I'll ask the loft about it before doing anything.

My gooseneck is similar to the one you showed, except that the inverted U-ie
is a bit further aft on mine...

Sorry this pics is more from underneath.
But it is in focus!
Can you see that extra inch aft?

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/DSCF0080a.JPG

By the way, the quote on the replacement fitting was $275.
That's actually not bat for what I'd get.
But it's a bit over budget at the moment.

I patched up the old fitting and pt it back in service.
For now...

Yes, the tack hook (whatever) should be closer to the mast, but what
in the world is that added link running from the fwd end of the boom
to the mast?

By the way, if you can weld you can make all the rigging fittings you
need. I use a section of large tube and cut a half round section to
fit against the mast (maybe beat it with a hammer to make it fit) and
cut flat stuff to shape with a 4 inch angle grinder and weld it
together with a small stick welder. You can buy welding electrodes in
various alloys of stainless and thickness (small diameter = lower
amperage and less burn through) and you can passivate them with many
acids (I've used a strong tile cleaner) or buy a special "stainless
passivating" stuff, or alternately buy a polishing head and some
abrasive and polish them.

To do the job correctly you should mount them to an aluminum mast
using an insulating gasket and an insulating sealant for the bolts. I
usually use plastic cut from any sort of flat sided plastic bottle and
either sikaflex 291 or 292 or 3M 5200, either of which also makes a
good thread lock :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or
the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the
cloth.

Casady

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 06:56:58 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or
the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the
cloth.

Casady

Usually you set up the sail with a bit of tension on it and then
stretch the rope pretty tight and then sew them together. The idea is
that when you put tension on the sail it doesn't tear. Most sails
laying loose will show quite a bit of wrinkle along the foot as the
rope contracts with no tension on it.

Actually I'm not so sure that it is needed in this age as roller
reefed mains don't have rope and jibs & etc. don't and the jib on my
last boat was larger then the main.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)