On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles. When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.


Willie, Wrong again.

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.

Cheers,

Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 13:03:25 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
tanews.com...
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m...

snipped Bruce's speculation


That foot looking loose has me puzzled.
Because it does. But when I tensioned it it looked worse!

We had no tension on outhaul or vang in that run.
It looks like the foot of the sail is trying to slide aft a bit.
There is no slug at the clew, and the tack fitting doesn't pull it
forward in line with the rest of the luff. It's only an inch or so.
But it might need to be retained there better. Just add a slug at
the bottom?

And I'm going to have to come up with a gate setup at the slot where
the slugs go into the mast. There is a sail stop there now, but it
holds
the stack up about 5 inches. I don't know if there are more slugs on
this
sail or what, but it sure stacks a lot taller when furled!


Don't add a slug at the bottom of the luff unless you know for sure that
the tack hook is in line vertically with the mast track slugs. The tack
of
the mainsail may be placed so it is NOT in a vertical line with the mast
slugs. This may be due to the fact that the tack hardware sits a few
inches aft on the boom. Mine is built that way so the sail was
especially
cut and the tack cringle is four inches aft of the vertical line formed
by
the mast slugs.

|o\
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
\o________o\



But, there SHOULD be a sliding slug at or near the clew. It should slide
easily and it should be lubed with silicone spray so it keeps sliding
easily. The outhaul should be used to keep it from sliding forward and
to
flatten the sail as required. The track in the boom also needs to be
kept
slippery. If you have slugs or even if you have a bolt-rope in lieu of
boom slugs. My mainsail has one sliding slug at the clew and a boltrope
the from clew to tack. This is a true shelf-foot. When the sail is
bellied
out all the way the shelf assumes the perfect shape with no wrinkles.
When
the outhaul is pulled tight the shelf assumes several folds that make it
appear to be no shelf at all. All told there is about six inches
difference of foot length between flat sail and full sail.


Oh, one more thing. The bolt rope, if any, on the foot of the mainsail
MUST
be nylon so it can stretch adequately. Dacron halyard line is not suitable
because it doesn't stretch enough.


Willie, Wrong again.

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot. The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
news.com...
trim

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot.

Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you
think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers,
etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same
reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely
stretch or don't stretch at all.

When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not
pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at
all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed
and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around
the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is
hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt
rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was
pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was
strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by
the very nature of the material.

Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have
no intimate knowledge about.

Wilbur Hubbard




The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 10:48:40 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...
trim

Assuming that the sail is attached to the boom and not loose footed,
to properly rope the foot the sail is stretched, often using a tackle,
and then the rope is sewn to the foot.

Wrong! Have you ever tried 'stretching' Dacron? Just why the hell do you
think Dacron is the material of choice for sails (except for spinnakers,
etc)? It's precicesly because Dacron stretches very little. For the same
reason, they make halyard line from dacron and other materials that barely
stretch or don't stretch at all.

When the nylon bolt rope is sewn into a shelf-footed main it is not
pre-stretched at all. The shelf of a shelf-footed sail is not tensioned at
all when the sail is properly sown. IOW, the bolt rope, if any, is relaxed
and the Dacron material is actually somewhat puckered fore and aft around
the bolt rope when the sail is set with a full belly. When the clew is
hauled out the belly in the sail assumes less of a curve as the nylon bolt
rope stretches and commences to pull flat the puckers. If it was
pre-stretched as you claim then the Dacron would end up tearing when it was
strained even more by the outhaul because Dacron doesn't hardly stretch by
the very nature of the material.

Get a clue and shut your yap when attempting to post about things you have
no intimate knowledge about.

Wilbur Hubbard

You are exactly right. Dacron does not stretch very much. Thus, adding
a nylon rope wouldn't accomplish anything which is why roping is done
with dacron rope - usually 3 strand stuff.

You seem to have some half arsed idea of what roping on a sail does -
it limits the stretch of the sail and adds strength. Adding a nylon
rope is about as sensible an idea as adding a rubber band would be..

Just as you did with the electrical and refrigeration problem you
didn't understand how the systems work but that didn't prevent you
from trying to sound like an expert and planting your foot firmly in
your mouth; once again. I keep telling you, keeping your mouth shut
might make people wonder if you are a fool, but opening it surely
convinces them.





The purpose of all this is to
reinforce the foot of the sail and to limit the amount that the sail
can be stretched by the out haul.

As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Try http://www.schattauersails.com/ultimateoffshore.html
and http://www.sailmakerssupply.com/prod_detail_list/26
for additional information.



It is becoming more and more plain that you know NOTHING about a
shelf-footed mainsail. Like you apparently seem to know nothing about just
about all other aspects of sailing.


Wilbur Hubbard



Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or
the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the
cloth.

Casady

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 06:56:58 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Jul 2011 18:45:01 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:43:13 -0500, Richard Casady
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 07:39:01 +0700, Bruce
wrote:


As the purpose of the foot rope is to limit the stretch of the foot of
the sail, using a nylon rope would defeat the basic reason for the
roping as nylon rope has up to 40% stretch and it would be impossible
to sew the rope to the sail to do this - it would mean that the foot
would be 40% shorter with tension released.

Just because it can be stretched to 40% elongation with_ some_ amount
of force, doesn't mean that this is magically the real life figure.
Been my experience with 15 to 20 foot daysailers that the bolt ropes,
for all practical purposes, don't stretch much. Maybe an inch or two.
Not six or seven feet.

Casady

Certainly. I was exaggerating in an attempt to make him stop and
think. I think I even gave him a reference to a sail makers supplier
who sells dacron for sail roping. I could dig out a sail makers manual
and give him another reference but I doubt he'd read it.

It seems obviious that the rope and should stretch the same amount or
the stitches would come under strain and probably break, or tear the
cloth.

Casady

Usually you set up the sail with a bit of tension on it and then
stretch the rope pretty tight and then sew them together. The idea is
that when you put tension on the sail it doesn't tear. Most sails
laying loose will show quite a bit of wrinkle along the foot as the
rope contracts with no tension on it.

Actually I'm not so sure that it is needed in this age as roller
reefed mains don't have rope and jibs & etc. don't and the jib on my
last boat was larger then the main.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)