Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:36:19 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

This newsgroup is NOT the kind of place I would invite friends into.
There is simply too much ego - and not enough content.

Content is good. What have you been up to recently? We're in a big
push getting the boat ready for a trip south to the islands.


I've been working off some winter projects on the boat.

I'm almost finished with the cabin redo. Added a couple of cabinets,
moves the electrical panel, added shelves behind the settees. etc.

On deck I've been rerouting a few lines and making things a bit easier
to get at. There was an asymmetrical spinnaker aboard when I bought the
boat, but no hardware to support it. That's all together and working now.

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

We are hoping to head south this coming spring and wander along the
coast a ways.

I'd love to meet up with you or Skip and Lydia somewhere.
What a hoot that would be!

Richard

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
We are hoping to head south this coming spring and wander along the
coast a ways.

I'd love to meet up with you or Skip and Lydia somewhere.
What a hoot that would be!

Richard


We'll be in the Bahamas for a year or so from now, December 17-January 17
excepted (and any other time Lydia gets a hankering for the grubby little
hands of her grandson, I've gathered).

See you on the water...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:47:13 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:


Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

There you go. Good topic.
Why?

--Vic

"cavelamb" wrote in message
..
..
snipped

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

Tell us why. My last boat had hanked-on foresails and I have had times when
I was nearly losing the sail and myself overboard trying to change jibs in a
gale in the dark.
Now I have a roller I would never go back to the former system. Mine is a
Profurl and it is very strong and I have never had a problem furling by
hauling the furling line by hand, but it is better to avoid the more lightly
built ones that tell you that you must never use a winch on the furling
line. You never know when you might just have to.

On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:47:13 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

I'd love to meet up with you or Skip and Lydia somewhere.
What a hoot that would be!

Try George Town in the southern Exumas, late January or early
February. We'll be passing through about that time and I believe that
S&L will be there also.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:47:13 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

I'd love to meet up with you or Skip and Lydia somewhere.
What a hoot that would be!

Try George Town in the southern Exumas, late January or early
February. We'll be passing through about that time and I believe that
S&L will be there also.


Indeed. ETA late January-mid February...

L8R

Skip and Lydia, troubleshooting our VHF
--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to
make it come true. You may have to work for it however."
(and)
"There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in
its hand
(Richard Bach)

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"cavelamb" wrote in message
..
.
snipped

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

Tell us why. My last boat had hanked-on foresails and I have had times
when I was nearly losing the sail and myself overboard trying to change
jibs in a gale in the dark.
Now I have a roller I would never go back to the former system. Mine is a
Profurl and it is very strong and I have never had a problem furling by
hauling the furling line by hand, but it is better to avoid the more
lightly built ones that tell you that you must never use a winch on the
furling line. You never know when you might just have to.



I've never had a problem with my Schaefer either, never used the winch and
they, as all companies I know, tell you not to do it. I've furled a sail on
a 60' boat with no effort greater than arm power. If you need a winch,
you're doing something wrong or there's a jam.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:27:39 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:


"cavelamb" wrote in message
..
.
snipped

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

Tell us why. My last boat had hanked-on foresails and I have had times when
I was nearly losing the sail and myself overboard trying to change jibs in a
gale in the dark.
Now I have a roller I would never go back to the former system. Mine is a
Profurl and it is very strong and I have never had a problem furling by
hauling the furling line by hand, but it is better to avoid the more lightly
built ones that tell you that you must never use a winch on the furling
line. You never know when you might just have to.

I think it's a matter of what type of sailing one does. If racing then
the furler won't allow you to reduce sail and maintain the best sail
shape but if cruising, i.e., making long passages with small crews
then the furler is the way to go. No problem for a single individual
to make major sail reduction or let it all hang out.

As for using a winch to roll up the sail. Why? The load on the sail is
a matter of wind strength and sale area that catches the wind. If it
is hard to roll just let off a bit on the sheet. The whole exercise
from grabbing the furling line to sitting back with a beer takes only
moments.

Although I think that are going out of style I have foam leeches in
both my head sails. They do make for a better sail shape for the first
few feet you reef the sail although they don't help much by the time
you get down to nothing but a handkerchief..

..
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:27:39 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"cavelamb" wrote in message
..
.
snipped

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

Tell us why. My last boat had hanked-on foresails and I have had times when
I was nearly losing the sail and myself overboard trying to change jibs in a
gale in the dark.
Now I have a roller I would never go back to the former system. Mine is a
Profurl and it is very strong and I have never had a problem furling by
hauling the furling line by hand, but it is better to avoid the more lightly
built ones that tell you that you must never use a winch on the furling
line. You never know when you might just have to.

I think it's a matter of what type of sailing one does. If racing then
the furler won't allow you to reduce sail and maintain the best sail
shape but if cruising, i.e., making long passages with small crews
then the furler is the way to go. No problem for a single individual
to make major sail reduction or let it all hang out.

As for using a winch to roll up the sail. Why? The load on the sail is
a matter of wind strength and sale area that catches the wind. If it
is hard to roll just let off a bit on the sheet. The whole exercise
from grabbing the furling line to sitting back with a beer takes only
moments.

Although I think that are going out of style I have foam leeches in
both my head sails. They do make for a better sail shape for the first
few feet you reef the sail although they don't help much by the time
you get down to nothing but a handkerchief..

.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Perhaps I've been racing too long and can't break the mind set.


Joe Berber, my sail maker (Mariner Sails in Dallas), pretty much said the same
thing you did, Bruce. The foam tape is tapered - widest in the middle of the
luff, tapered down to nothing on the ends, so that when the sail rolls up it
rolls up evenly, rather than skinny in the middle.

That helps with sail shape by keeping the middle of the roll filled out flush so
it doesn't have a bunch of excess fabric to make a deep belly.

It also helps extend sail life since the sail doesn't stretch unevenly.

My genoa (135%) when fully unrolled in light air (about 8 knots) shows three
very distinct scallops along the leech. That's two places where it is "pinched".
They correspond to the points where the sail has been "reefed".

So the foam luff tape is a possible solution offered for the reefing / sail
shape issue.


And Bruce, I take careful note of what you said about cruising short handed.
Back to that in a moment...

What I've seen so far on this boat...

The full genny is ok up to about 15 knots of breeze (usually don't have rail
meat to stand her up past that).

The boat points way higher that I expected. Best I've seen we did 35 degrees
off making 3 to 3.5 knots. I had several guests that day (new sailboat owners
who had never sailed before!) so there was enough meat on the rail to hold her
up. It was a fabulous beat!

By 20 knots, it should have been reduced about 25% to 30% with a reef in the
main. That would correspond to a 100% working jib. But a working jib would
probably be made a bit heavier. We loose maybe 10 degrees to weather.

By 25 knots is need to be down to half (call it 50 to 65%), and we've lost
another 10 to 15 degrees.

At 30 knots, I'm down to reefed main alone and can't point worth squat. She will
beam reach pretty well, but maybe a point or two forward is all it's going to do.


I have a fantasy of a small stay sail that could be flown in heavy wind.
It would be about 20 to 25% of the fore triangle, and cut high to allow the
sheets to align on the cabin top tracks.

A strong eye pad just aft of the anchor locker for the tack, and a halyard at
the spreaders to hoist it. That would technically make my reefed main about a
3/4 fractional rig and probably help recover some of the lost pointing ability.

I'm more in favor of this than one of those Gale Sails because of the location.
The GS is located all the way forward - no help for the main, and a LONG moment
arm back to the keel. Lot's of turning force.

A stay sail would help the main some by making a little slot effect, and is
located much closer to the mast. (same as the reefed main)

I think it would be useful regardless of the jib (rolled up or taken down).


Anyway...
Back to the roller/hank question...

Mechanical reliability?

I can't get to the forestay turnbuckle without disassembling part of the furler.
Makes it hard to examine very often.


If that little furling line comes loose...
Never mind! I don't even want to think about that one.
(but I'm open to offers of how to deal with it)


If the roller jams?
I'm told the halyard can do that - top of the mast, of course.
Gee, What fun that would be to clear!


If the jib should tear?
It takes me too long to thread that thin luff in calm conditions at the dock.
I'd prefer not to have to do it in any kind of sea!
Remember, it has to be fed into the groove of the foil - not like hanking on a
bunched up (and tied) head sail.


Now... Back to what Bruce said - and what it implies...

Balance against all that heavy disaster scenario -
conserving strength of the crew.

How important is that?

From what I've read, more boats are lost at sea because the crew was exhausted
or injured - not because the boat came undone.


I've raced a lot.
But I've not done much long distance (or long duration) sailing.
There is still a lot for me to learn.


Richard

S.V. Temptress

"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

I have a fantasy of a small stay sail that could be flown in heavy wind.
It would be about 20 to 25% of the fore triangle, and cut high to allow
the sheets to align on the cabin top tracks.

A strong eye pad just aft of the anchor locker for the tack, and a halyard
at
the spreaders to hoist it. That would technically make my reefed main
about a
3/4 fractional rig and probably help recover some of the lost pointing
ability.

I'm more in favor of this than one of those Gale Sails because of the
location.
The GS is located all the way forward - no help for the main, and a LONG
moment
arm back to the keel. Lot's of turning force.

A stay sail would help the main some by making a little slot effect, and
is located much closer to the mast. (same as the reefed main)

I think it would be useful regardless of the jib (rolled up or taken
down).

My boat came with all that gear to set a staysail just as you describe. I
have an eye pad on a track on the foredeck so can adjust its position. Also
have additional sheet tracks port and starboard plus extra sheets so that on
a long reach I can put up the staysail as well as the jib and turn her into
a sort of cutter rig.
Never tried all that yet but I took my staysail to my sailmaker here so I
could see it open on his floor so I could know exactly what I had rather
than getting nasty surprises when opening a large sail on the foredeck for
the first time.
The sail looked fine but the guy strongly suggested that staysails were not
worth bothering with. He should know a thing or two as he was sailmaker
once on one of those round the world racers but he never made it clear what
he did not like about staysails. So the only thing is to give it a try and
see for myself.


(Re roller vesus hank)
If the jib should tear?
It takes me too long to thread that thin luff in calm conditions at the
dock.
I'd prefer not to have to do it in any kind of sea!
Remember, it has to be fed into the groove of the foil - not like hanking
on a bunched up (and tied) head sail.

I am with you on that one. My boat has a full set of racing sails which I
leave ashore. They have all been converted to fit into the foil of the
roller which the previous owner (non racing) fitted to her. So now it is
impossible for a shorthanded cruising couple to change foresails as you
really need two on the foredeck to feed in the new sail while controlling
the rest of it (big sail-38' boat) and at least one in the cockpit to winch
it up, plus autopilot or preferably another person steering. The really bad
thing is that he converted the storm jib in the same way so because there is
usually only my wife and myself aboard I have no alternative in a strong
wind to using the roller to reef the foresail if it becomes necessary. Maybe
I could set the storm jib free flying on the staysail fixings but that is
another thing that needs a test to see if it is practical. I doubt if it
would set well given that it is always going to be needed only in very
strong winds.