On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:15:56 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:27:39 +0100, "Edgar"
wrote:

"cavelamb" wrote in message
..
.
snipped

Still going back and forth on the head sail question.
To roll or not to roll...
this is my first roller, and I'm not completely in love with it.
It works as advertised, but I'm not convinced I want to keep it.

Tell us why. My last boat had hanked-on foresails and I have had times when
I was nearly losing the sail and myself overboard trying to change jibs in a
gale in the dark.
Now I have a roller I would never go back to the former system. Mine is a
Profurl and it is very strong and I have never had a problem furling by
hauling the furling line by hand, but it is better to avoid the more lightly
built ones that tell you that you must never use a winch on the furling
line. You never know when you might just have to.

I think it's a matter of what type of sailing one does. If racing then
the furler won't allow you to reduce sail and maintain the best sail
shape but if cruising, i.e., making long passages with small crews
then the furler is the way to go. No problem for a single individual
to make major sail reduction or let it all hang out.

As for using a winch to roll up the sail. Why? The load on the sail is
a matter of wind strength and sale area that catches the wind. If it
is hard to roll just let off a bit on the sheet. The whole exercise
from grabbing the furling line to sitting back with a beer takes only
moments.

Although I think that are going out of style I have foam leeches in
both my head sails. They do make for a better sail shape for the first
few feet you reef the sail although they don't help much by the time
you get down to nothing but a handkerchief..

.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)


Perhaps I've been racing too long and can't break the mind set.


Joe Berber, my sail maker (Mariner Sails in Dallas), pretty much said the same
thing you did, Bruce. The foam tape is tapered - widest in the middle of the
luff, tapered down to nothing on the ends, so that when the sail rolls up it
rolls up evenly, rather than skinny in the middle.

That helps with sail shape by keeping the middle of the roll filled out flush so
it doesn't have a bunch of excess fabric to make a deep belly.

It also helps extend sail life since the sail doesn't stretch unevenly.

My genoa (135%) when fully unrolled in light air (about 8 knots) shows three
very distinct scallops along the leech. That's two places where it is "pinched".
They correspond to the points where the sail has been "reefed".

So the foam luff tape is a possible solution offered for the reefing / sail
shape issue.


And Bruce, I take careful note of what you said about cruising short handed.
Back to that in a moment...

What I've seen so far on this boat...

The full genny is ok up to about 15 knots of breeze (usually don't have rail
meat to stand her up past that).

The boat points way higher that I expected. Best I've seen we did 35 degrees
off making 3 to 3.5 knots. I had several guests that day (new sailboat owners
who had never sailed before!) so there was enough meat on the rail to hold her
up. It was a fabulous beat!

By 20 knots, it should have been reduced about 25% to 30% with a reef in the
main. That would correspond to a 100% working jib. But a working jib would
probably be made a bit heavier. We loose maybe 10 degrees to weather.

By 25 knots is need to be down to half (call it 50 to 65%), and we've lost
another 10 to 15 degrees.

At 30 knots, I'm down to reefed main alone and can't point worth squat. She will
beam reach pretty well, but maybe a point or two forward is all it's going to do.


I have a fantasy of a small stay sail that could be flown in heavy wind.
It would be about 20 to 25% of the fore triangle, and cut high to allow the
sheets to align on the cabin top tracks.

A strong eye pad just aft of the anchor locker for the tack, and a halyard at
the spreaders to hoist it. That would technically make my reefed main about a
3/4 fractional rig and probably help recover some of the lost pointing ability.

I'm more in favor of this than one of those Gale Sails because of the location.
The GS is located all the way forward - no help for the main, and a LONG moment
arm back to the keel. Lot's of turning force.

A stay sail would help the main some by making a little slot effect, and is
located much closer to the mast. (same as the reefed main)

I think it would be useful regardless of the jib (rolled up or taken down).


Anyway...
Back to the roller/hank question...

Mechanical reliability?

I can't get to the forestay turnbuckle without disassembling part of the furler.
Makes it hard to examine very often.


If that little furling line comes loose...
Never mind! I don't even want to think about that one.
(but I'm open to offers of how to deal with it)


If the roller jams?
I'm told the halyard can do that - top of the mast, of course.
Gee, What fun that would be to clear!


If the jib should tear?
It takes me too long to thread that thin luff in calm conditions at the dock.
I'd prefer not to have to do it in any kind of sea!
Remember, it has to be fed into the groove of the foil - not like hanking on a
bunched up (and tied) head sail.


Now... Back to what Bruce said - and what it implies...

Balance against all that heavy disaster scenario -
conserving strength of the crew.

How important is that?

From what I've read, more boats are lost at sea because the crew was exhausted
or injured - not because the boat came undone.


I've raced a lot.
But I've not done much long distance (or long duration) sailing.
There is still a lot for me to learn.


Richard

S.V. Temptress

Lets see; re small head sail.

There was a guy (can't remember his name, Illingsworth? Something like
that) that was active in the midget ocean racing group (don't remember
the initials) in England in the 60's. He advocated a "cutter" rig with
a big jib and a small. very high cut, stay sail. Something like you
are talking about.

By the way, if you do rig this up I would view the "eye bolt through
the deck attaching point" with some suspicion . Check to see how much
deck movement you get when the sail is up. There can be more force
here then you thought there would be. You may have to rig a stay rod
down to the keel.

Re rollers. Yes, a furler can jam and even actually untwist the stay
if you don't install it correctly. One of the correct parts of
installing it is using a guide, or other means of ensuring that the
halyard cannot get twisted around the stay when the foil is rotated.

As for the reefing line "coming off". I can't speak for all of them
but on mine the reefing line runs through the top flange of the drum
and is secured with a knot. Certainly it could come undone or chaff
but so can the shrouds :-) I assume that anyone who sails does at
least rudimentary inspections of the rig and rigging fairly regularly.

Re sailing close to the wind. first of all "Gentlemen don't sail to
Windward", at least that was what the book said :-)

But more seriously, I seldom worry about how high the boat will point.
Most of my sailing is either day sailing - go out to the island, have
lunch, comeback; or trips of 100 miles or so. Because I'm in a monsoon
region the winds are always either from the S.W. or N.E. so depending
on what season of the year I either have head winds or tail winds
depending on what way I'm going since I can basically only go north or
south.

Ocean crossings are usually planned on a seasonal basis to you
normally have the winds with you. No one, for instance, is going to
set off on a trip to India with the winds in their face - that would
be nearly a month of up wind slogging.

The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Edgar wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

I have a fantasy of a small stay sail that could be flown in heavy wind.
It would be about 20 to 25% of the fore triangle, and cut high to allow
the sheets to align on the cabin top tracks.

A strong eye pad just aft of the anchor locker for the tack, and a halyard
at
the spreaders to hoist it. That would technically make my reefed main
about a
3/4 fractional rig and probably help recover some of the lost pointing
ability.

I'm more in favor of this than one of those Gale Sails because of the
location.
The GS is located all the way forward - no help for the main, and a LONG
moment
arm back to the keel. Lot's of turning force.

A stay sail would help the main some by making a little slot effect, and
is located much closer to the mast. (same as the reefed main)

I think it would be useful regardless of the jib (rolled up or taken
down).

My boat came with all that gear to set a staysail just as you describe. I
have an eye pad on a track on the foredeck so can adjust its position. Also
have additional sheet tracks port and starboard plus extra sheets so that on
a long reach I can put up the staysail as well as the jib and turn her into
a sort of cutter rig.
Never tried all that yet but I took my staysail to my sailmaker here so I
could see it open on his floor so I could know exactly what I had rather
than getting nasty surprises when opening a large sail on the foredeck for
the first time.
The sail looked fine but the guy strongly suggested that staysails were not
worth bothering with. He should know a thing or two as he was sailmaker
once on one of those round the world racers but he never made it clear what
he did not like about staysails. So the only thing is to give it a try and
see for myself.



I envy you that set up, Edgar.
I'd have to do a lot of fixing before I could even try to try it.

I called it a stay sail, because that's the correct term for a sail there.
It would (obviously) have to be built heavier than a light air stay sail.
But I would use it as the storm jib.

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!

Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!

Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!

On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:01:26 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!

Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!


This is the new boat your were talking about a couple of years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:01:26 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!
Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!


This is the new boat your were talking about a couple of years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

No, that one fell through.

Dorothy's uncle passed away and she was supposed to inherit his
Hunter. But the kids threw a fuss (none of them wanted the boat -
just the money) and it didn't happen.

This one, "Temptress", is a much smaller Catalina Capri 26 that I
bought last year.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/

We are hoping to move her down to the coast (that's Galveston Bay
area) in the spring and wander down the coast a ways - maybe get sea sick
and puke a lot - and hopefully have fun anyway.

Richard

On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:29:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:01:26 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!
Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!


This is the new boat your were talking about a couple of years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

No, that one fell through.

Dorothy's uncle passed away and she was supposed to inherit his
Hunter. But the kids threw a fuss (none of them wanted the boat -
just the money) and it didn't happen.

This one, "Temptress", is a much smaller Catalina Capri 26 that I
bought last year.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/

We are hoping to move her down to the coast (that's Galveston Bay
area) in the spring and wander down the coast a ways - maybe get sea sick
and puke a lot - and hopefully have fun anyway.

Richard

Thus the confusion. I remembered the "hope we get it" messages and
then there was the "New boat" sort of stuff and somehow I mentally
tied them together and envisioned you floating about in a larger boat.
Nice looking little boat though.

Frankly I would assume that with the rather restricted deck forward
you would be enthusiastically installing a furler.

By the way, where do you stow the dinghy when cruising? If on the
foredeck it adds even more reason to have a furler :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:29:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:01:26 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!
Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!

This is the new boat your were talking about a couple of years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
No, that one fell through.

Dorothy's uncle passed away and she was supposed to inherit his
Hunter. But the kids threw a fuss (none of them wanted the boat -
just the money) and it didn't happen.

This one, "Temptress", is a much smaller Catalina Capri 26 that I
bought last year.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/

We are hoping to move her down to the coast (that's Galveston Bay
area) in the spring and wander down the coast a ways - maybe get sea sick
and puke a lot - and hopefully have fun anyway.

Richard

Thus the confusion. I remembered the "hope we get it" messages and
then there was the "New boat" sort of stuff and somehow I mentally
tied them together and envisioned you floating about in a larger boat.
Nice looking little boat though.

Frankly I would assume that with the rather restricted deck forward
you would be enthusiastically installing a furler.

By the way, where do you stow the dinghy when cruising? If on the
foredeck it adds even more reason to have a furler :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Thanks for remembering, Bruce!

Yeah - we were pretty disappointed.
The boat was a 38 foot Hunter - light for it's size, and not particularly
pretty but what the heck!? It was only a few years old and the price for sure
was right! Then it went for 25% market value - and no, we didn't get a chance
to bid on it. Bummer.

So I went looking for a boat I could afford to buy my own bad self!

I've sailed Catalina 27s and 28s and liked them.
This 26 has considerably more room below (10 feet beam) and sails as well
(or better?). It's a Frank Butler design and I suspect the transition
between the old Catalina line and the new (3 digit) boats.
I think they used it to work out the new design and construction techniques.

We actually do have a foredeck! A very roomy one too.
More so than the old Catalina lines did.

I've been looking at that space thinking about loading and
carrying a dinghy there. It looks "do-able" - for a small dink.

Problem is that I want a larger dinghy than will comfortably fit.
An 8 foot Walker Bay with the rid collar?
Or a 10 foot - same.
That's just to carry two people and a weight of supplies.

I've seen one towed (hang on a sec!) towed backwards with the transom elevated
and hung on the stern rail with only the bow in the water. It is basically an
articulation of the main boat - not following on a rope.

But with only 3'3" draft, we should be in close enough that maybe a smaller
dinghy would serve ok?

More learnin' to come...

On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:01:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:29:20 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:01:26 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:32:51 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
The best method of sailing close hauled is START THE MOTOR :-!

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
Motor?

You have a MOTOR?

Huh! Maybe I out to get one of those!?!
Picky, picky. All right - ENGINE :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
It's ok, Bruce.
Not being picky - just jelousy.
I have an outboard.

I sail faster, but power?

Well, we do sail faster!

This is the new boat your were talking about a couple of years ago?

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
No, that one fell through.

Dorothy's uncle passed away and she was supposed to inherit his
Hunter. But the kids threw a fuss (none of them wanted the boat -
just the money) and it didn't happen.

This one, "Temptress", is a much smaller Catalina Capri 26 that I
bought last year.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~capri26/

We are hoping to move her down to the coast (that's Galveston Bay
area) in the spring and wander down the coast a ways - maybe get sea sick
and puke a lot - and hopefully have fun anyway.

Richard

Thus the confusion. I remembered the "hope we get it" messages and
then there was the "New boat" sort of stuff and somehow I mentally
tied them together and envisioned you floating about in a larger boat.
Nice looking little boat though.

Frankly I would assume that with the rather restricted deck forward
you would be enthusiastically installing a furler.

By the way, where do you stow the dinghy when cruising? If on the
foredeck it adds even more reason to have a furler :-)

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Thanks for remembering, Bruce!

Yeah - we were pretty disappointed.
The boat was a 38 foot Hunter - light for it's size, and not particularly
pretty but what the heck!? It was only a few years old and the price for sure
was right! Then it went for 25% market value - and no, we didn't get a chance
to bid on it. Bummer.

So I went looking for a boat I could afford to buy my own bad self!

I've sailed Catalina 27s and 28s and liked them.
This 26 has considerably more room below (10 feet beam) and sails as well
(or better?). It's a Frank Butler design and I suspect the transition
between the old Catalina line and the new (3 digit) boats.
I think they used it to work out the new design and construction techniques.

We actually do have a foredeck! A very roomy one too.
More so than the old Catalina lines did.

I've been looking at that space thinking about loading and
carrying a dinghy there. It looks "do-able" - for a small dink.

Problem is that I want a larger dinghy than will comfortably fit.
An 8 foot Walker Bay with the rid collar?
Or a 10 foot - same.
That's just to carry two people and a weight of supplies.

I've seen one towed (hang on a sec!) towed backwards with the transom elevated
and hung on the stern rail with only the bow in the water. It is basically an
articulation of the main boat - not following on a rope.

But with only 3'3" draft, we should be in close enough that maybe a smaller
dinghy would serve ok?

More learnin' to come...

Well. I suppose that with 3'3"" draft a pair of waders *might* work.
(All you foreigners are tall, they say :-)

I've never actually seen a "Walker Bay" dinghy but my 8 ft. plywood
dinghy will easily carry myself, the wife and say two 5 gallon water
cans, although I admit that my dinghy was built to fit on the forward
portion of the cabin top and to compensate for the short length I
widened it somewhat so I have nearly 4 ft. of beam and I deliberately
built a pram design so I didn't waste space with a sharp bow.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)