Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.



Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.
Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat.

Nope, you're a sailboat.

You could reach over and put it in gear.

Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was
need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial
blame.

Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored,

If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular
obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor
in a channel.)

you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat.
(And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail
luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...
"Edgar" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least
a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths
last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.
I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.



Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of
the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is
why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red
PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters.
I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a
sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely
out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the
tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where
he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only
charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.
Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power,
but I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take
a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat.

Nope, you're a sailboat.

You could reach over and put it in gear.

Yup. That's the important part: if putting it in gear was all that was
need to avoid the accident then the sailboat would have at least partial
blame.

Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an anchored
powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored,

If its anchored, it isn't "underway" and therefore has no particular
obligation as a "power-driven" vessel. (Unless, of course, you anchor in
a channel.)

you think the court will let you get away claiming under sail status when
the engine is running?

But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And
yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing,
insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat. Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a
generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not
have props as far as I know. Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat. (And
yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail luffing,
insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine,
an elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in
gear without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a
long sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with
an engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a
generator during a race. Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not
have props as far as I know.

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at
the heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling
machinery ... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to
avoid a collision.

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:53:59 -0400, H the K
wrote:

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

I had a Mercedes industrial tractor that need half an hour, full
throttle under load, to fully warm up. It would produce near full
power when pretty cold, fortunately.

Casady

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

H the K wrote:
On 10/20/09 7:46 AM, Jeff wrote:
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine
was running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough
to put in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a
sailboat. (And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with
the sail luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other
sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said
for any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up?


Actually, yes. I see it all the time.

Please post this a fourth time.

How can you berate others for their newsreader issues, WAFA?

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat.
(And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail
luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)

Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.

Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an
elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear
without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long
sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an
engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race.
Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I
know.

So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.

Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the
heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery
... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a
collision.

A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being
used",

The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being
used.

Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Bill McKee wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
But what if it wasn't the engine but the genset? What if the engine was
running but the transmission was broken. Or not warmed up enough to put
in gear? If the sail is drawing you have to treat it as a sailboat.
(And yes, I've seen a sailboat powering into the wind with the sail
luffing, insisting the he has right of way over other sailboats!)
Motor running power boat. Not warm enough engine? Same could be said for
any motor driven boat.
Oh really??? Is it that common for "motor driven boats" to deliberately
leave a slip or mooring before the engine is warmed up? I think its
pretty obvious that no powerboater would want to be underway with engine
that needs a few minutes before it can be trusted, but in fact many
sailboats are in precisely that situation every time they return to port.

Example: On my previous boat, I would generally power only within a few
hundred yards of the slip, both leaving and returning. But the engine, an
elderly Westerbeke, needed about 5 minutes before it could be put in gear
without stalling. This meant that anytime time I came back from a long
sail with a cold engine, I had to sail through a busy harbor with an
engine running that was not available for use.

Someone stated Americas Cup boats could run a generator during a race.
Races are controlled areas, and AC boats do not have props as far as I
know.
So, are you claiming that running a genset really does make a sailboat a
powerboat???

Plus there is no right of way in maritime law.
Not strictly true, but since its clear you've never actually read the
rules, we'll forgive you for that.

And you should note that no one, other than the unnamed straw man, has
claimed "right of way;" I only mentioned obligations. And that is at the
heart of this. A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery
... is not being used", but it still has an obligation to avoid a
collision.

A Sailboat is still a Sailboat if "propelling machinery ... is not being
used",

The motor is part of the propelling machinery. So the machinery is being
used.


Nope. You could also claim that the motor, even not started, is used as
as ballast, so its a powerboat. But its still pretty lame.