Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:45:10 -0400, H the K
wrote:


How many times have you been aboard an open boat that swamped?

In nearly 60 years of boating in small boats, I never have.

Once, but I've done very little boating.
Weather kicked up quick when fishing with my grand dad.
Luckily, he was able to run it ashore and beach it, almost half full
of water.
It the engine had quit, who knows what would have happened.
But boats swamp all the time. It's a leading cause of boat fatality
mishaps. Pretty sure anyway.

--Vic

Top causes of accidents:
Number of Accidents/Number of Deaths/Number of Injuries
1 Collision with Vessel 1237 60 856
2 Flooding/swamping 475 89 179
3 Collision with Fixed Object 446 53 328
4 Falls Overboard 431 188 257
5 Skier Mishap 383 10 397

However, when we look at "all accident types" we find that capsizes
actually have more deaths from a smaller number of (reported) accidents:

Accidents/Vessels Involved/Drowning/Other Deaths/Total Deaths
All Accident Types 4789 6347 510 199 709
Capsizing 348 359 163 26 189
Carbon Monoxide Exposure 18 19 0 11 11
Collision with Fixed Object 446 501 23 30 53
Collision with Floating Object 59 64 4 1 5
Collision with Vessel 1237 2547 11 49 60
Departed Vessel 87 106 37 0 37
Ejected from Vessel 123 135 11 6 17
Electrocution 0 0 0 0 0
Fall in Vessel 140 147 1 1 2
Fall on Vessel 62 66 0 1 1
Falls Overboard 431 447 157 31 188
Fire/Explosion (fuel) 136 29 0 1 1
Fire/Explosion (non-fuel) 78 164 1 1 2
Fire/Explosion (Unknown origin) 25 84 2 0 2
Flooding/Swamping 475 497 80 9 89
Grounding 322 330 3 10 13
Sinking 16 16 0 2 2
Skier Mishap 383 398 6 4 10
Struck by Vessel 37 51 0 2 2
Struck by Propeller 83 86 0 5 5
Struck Submerged Object 154 154 4 1 5
Other 123 141 4 5 9
Unknown 6 6 3 3 6

So adding all deaths from capsize and Flooding/Swamping we have 278, or
39% of the total of 709.

Looking further, of the 359 capsizes, only 5 were by Aux Sail and 22 by
Sail only. Also, of the total 709 deaths, 15 were Aux sail, 10 were
other sail. One odd item jumped out: of the 15 deaths in Aux Sail, 8
were age 60-69. I guess I should be writing a will.

I looked at 2007 to see if this was an anomaly, and then, 4 out of 18
were 60-69. However, leaving out the "unknown age," 10 out of 14 were
50 or older.

BTW, Aux Sailboat make up a bit over 1% of the boats with power, so the
15 deaths are more than their share, but its still a small enough number
that people will think the are relatively safe. Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

from:
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...stics_2008.pdf

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:17:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

That's not surprising. Seems like an awful lot of people with very
little boating knowledge are buying or renting rotomolded Kayaks and
blithely heading out into dangerous situations. It's become as big a
fad as hula hoops, but a lot more dangerous.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:36:33 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:17:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

That's not surprising. Seems like an awful lot of people with very
little boating knowledge are buying or renting rotomolded Kayaks and
blithely heading out into dangerous situations. It's become as big a
fad as hula hoops, but a lot more dangerous.

I would be surprised if hula hoops sold fewer than a hundred times as
many as kayaks. Pretty much every family I knew had at least one. They
made the news regularly for a while.

Casady

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:52:40 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:36:33 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:17:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

That's not surprising. Seems like an awful lot of people with very
little boating knowledge are buying or renting rotomolded Kayaks and
blithely heading out into dangerous situations. It's become as big a
fad as hula hoops, but a lot more dangerous.

I would be surprised if hula hoops sold fewer than a hundred times as
many as kayaks. Pretty much every family I knew had at least one. They
made the news regularly for a while.

Casady

Oi!

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:52:40 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:36:33 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:17:30 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

That's not surprising. Seems like an awful lot of people with very
little boating knowledge are buying or renting rotomolded Kayaks and
blithely heading out into dangerous situations. It's become as big a
fad as hula hoops, but a lot more dangerous.

I would be surprised if hula hoops sold fewer than a hundred times as
many as kayaks. Pretty much every family I knew had at least one. They
made the news regularly for a while.

Addendum:

More than a hundred million in the first year.

Casady

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:49:56 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Since most un-powered
boats are not registered, its not easy to determine their relative
safety. We'd have to look at hours spent in various types of boats, etc.

There were statistics published sometime in the last couple of years
which showed that deaths in canoes and kayaks were way out of
proportion to their overall numbers. Canoes and kayaks are usually
unregistered of course.

I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together have been selling about half a million a year recently, though
falling off last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle
boats" out there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or
at least a significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350
deaths last year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.

Edgar wrote:

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.

It certainly feels like that would be the case, but in fact its not very
common. From a major study:
"The extent to which other vessels contribute to
canoe and kayak fatalities is harder to determine.
In its review of narrative accident data, the ACA
found only a few fatal accidents positively
identified as involving another vessel."
The study goes on to point out that there are a number of fatal capsizes
that are un-witnessed and thus we can't know if another vessel is
involved. We'll certainly never know how many deaths are caused by
wakes from passing boats. But, isn't that simply one of the implied
risks of padding? Certainly, no one should paddle a canoe or kayak
across a busy harbor without wearing a PFD.

The study also points out that the low profile of touring kayaks does
not seem to be a factor in accidents or fatalities. In fact, touring
kayaks were only involved in a small number of fatalities, about one per
year.

http://www.americancanoe.org/atf/cf/...7D/SEI_CJ2.pdf

About 15 years ago, when kayaking took off, there was a belief amongst
paddlers that the rules implied that the "smaller boat always had the
right of way." While there is some truth to that in many state rules
that cover inland lakes (i.e. not covered by the ColRegs or Inland
Rules), that is certainly not the case in most cruising waters.
Fortunately, safety education for paddlers now teaches the real rules
and the prudence of avoiding busy waters.

I would have guessed PWC's often run over canoes, but in fact the
generally run over each other:
"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:05:41 -0400, Jeff wrote:

"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

And it's easy to see why when you watch the promotional videos. They
are always shown as toys being ridden in circles, in close proximity
to each other. People buy them thinking that is normal behavior on
the water.