On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:48:37 -0700, Capt. JG wrote:

Are you sure it's a rigging issue, beyond what you've stated toward the
end? Did you notice or not notice this prior to the new rigging?

truthfully no, I don't know for a fact that it is a rigging issue and in
fact I did notice this prior to the new rigging. I replaced the rigging
because it may have been the original gear on the 40 year old boat. We
got a large set of invoices for work done when we bought the boat in
2000, but no record of the standing rigging ever having been replaced.

Another poster mentioned keel/rudder alignment. Unless the boat came out
of the mold wrong, and I don't think it did because this assymetry has
only been noticed for two seasons, I will look closer at the rudder when
it comes out in the fall if I can't resolve this by tweaking the rigging.


Here's a tuning guide for manually tuning a C&C.. not sure what boat you
have.

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityou...ing/tuning.htm

close enough, mine is a 1966 Hinterholler HR 28
thanks

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:51:43 -0500, "mr.b" wrote:

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead rig
with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed. Headsails
are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.

If the rig tuning is off it should show up as a difference in sail
shape. Does the main seem fuller or flatter from one tack to the
other? How about head stay sag? Are the jib leads in exactly the
same position? Have you tried adjusting them separately? Is the jib
luff the same distance off the spreaders on both tacks?

Many paddle wheel knot meters read differently on opposite tacks.
When I was working with high tech instrumentation on my old Cal-34 we
ended up installing port and starboard paddle wheels with a switch box
which I had to remember when tacking. It sounds like your boat is
actually handling differently however, not just a speed difference.
If all else fails try to get an experienced rigger and/or sailmaker to
go out with you.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:52:18 -0400, gmackey wrote:

Get this document:

http://seldenmast.com/frameset.cfm?i...dnum=334078021

Choose the English version.

If the performance of your boat is indeed asymmetrical, something not
rig related might be afoot. Your keel (or rudder) could be out of line.

thanks, a good read

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:26:23 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Is the jib
luff the same distance off the spreaders on both tacks?

Correction, make that jib leech (the trailing edge).

"mr.b" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:48:37 -0700, Capt. JG wrote:

Are you sure it's a rigging issue, beyond what you've stated toward the
end? Did you notice or not notice this prior to the new rigging?

truthfully no, I don't know for a fact that it is a rigging issue and in
fact I did notice this prior to the new rigging. I replaced the rigging
because it may have been the original gear on the 40 year old boat. We
got a large set of invoices for work done when we bought the boat in
2000, but no record of the standing rigging ever having been replaced.

Another poster mentioned keel/rudder alignment. Unless the boat came out
of the mold wrong, and I don't think it did because this assymetry has
only been noticed for two seasons, I will look closer at the rudder when
it comes out in the fall if I can't resolve this by tweaking the rigging.


Here's a tuning guide for manually tuning a C&C.. not sure what boat you
have.

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityou...ing/tuning.htm

close enough, mine is a 1966 Hinterholler HR 28
thanks


Good move about replacing the rigging... I seriously doubt it's an alignment
issue. It may just be the nature of the boat. You'll never have a boat that
behaves exactly the same on opposite tacks. I've noticed this on many
different boats, including my boat, although I've never worried about it all
that much. It was professionally tuned. If I have a full water tank (port
side), then I can see a slight lean when it sits at the dock. I usually
leave it about 1/2 to 3/4 full, which seems to work. Even, for example, and
inch off on the traveller center would make a difference.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:26:23 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:51:43 -0500, "mr.b" wrote:

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead
rig with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed.
Headsails are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.

If the rig tuning is off it should show up as a difference in sail
shape. Does the main seem fuller or flatter from one tack to the
other?

no appreciable difference that I can see

How about head stay sag?

as I said, it sags probably 5 inches anyway off-centre. This can't be
right. I guess my biggest concern is over-tightening the shrouds and
stays. The seldén.com reference offered by another poster shows
tightening turnbuckles a 3-4 mm. past hand tight will have your shrouds
at 15% of their breaking strength which they recommend as correct. I
think I've got 10mm past had tight already and the rig seems to me to be
way loose, at least on the one tack. Another poster recommends a Loos
gauge. Perhaps a useful tool.

Are the jib leads in exactly the same
position?

leads are same size, same brand, same position on their tracks

Have you tried adjusting them separately?

Yes, but there is no apparent difference in jib shape or position -it's
brand new i.e., 4 hrs of sail time.

Is the jib "luff" - leech
the same distance off the spreaders on both tacks?

yes, the clew on this #3 just reaches the spreaders so it's very easy to
judge

Many paddle wheel knot meters read differently on opposite tacks.

now this is something I'm going to have a closer look at as well.

When I was working with high tech instrumentation on my old Cal-34 we
ended up installing port and starboard paddle wheels with a switch box
which I
had to remember when tacking. It sounds like your boat is actually
handling differently however, not just a speed difference. If all else
fails try to get an experienced rigger and/or sailmaker to go out with
you.

thanks for the questions, it helps focus the mind. I've got some guys on
the dock who've been there and back. If I can't get this sorted out in
the next day or two, I'll ask for help.
Cheers

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 07:21:28 -0500, "mr.b" wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:26:23 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:51:43 -0500, "mr.b" wrote:

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead
rig with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed.
Headsails are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.

If the rig tuning is off it should show up as a difference in sail
shape. Does the main seem fuller or flatter from one tack to the
other?

no appreciable difference that I can see

How about head stay sag?

as I said, it sags probably 5 inches anyway off-centre. This can't be
right. I guess my biggest concern is over-tightening the shrouds and
stays. The seldén.com reference offered by another poster shows
tightening turnbuckles a 3-4 mm. past hand tight will have your shrouds
at 15% of their breaking strength which they recommend as correct. I
think I've got 10mm past had tight already and the rig seems to me to be
way loose, at least on the one tack. Another poster recommends a Loos
gauge. Perhaps a useful tool.

Are the jib leads in exactly the same
position?

leads are same size, same brand, same position on their tracks

Have you tried adjusting them separately?

Yes, but there is no apparent difference in jib shape or position -it's
brand new i.e., 4 hrs of sail time.

Is the jib "luff" - leech
the same distance off the spreaders on both tacks?

yes, the clew on this #3 just reaches the spreaders so it's very easy to
judge

Many paddle wheel knot meters read differently on opposite tacks.

now this is something I'm going to have a closer look at as well.

When I was working with high tech instrumentation on my old Cal-34 we
ended up installing port and starboard paddle wheels with a switch box
which I
had to remember when tacking. It sounds like your boat is actually
handling differently however, not just a speed difference. If all else
fails try to get an experienced rigger and/or sailmaker to go out with
you.

thanks for the questions, it helps focus the mind. I've got some guys on
the dock who've been there and back. If I can't get this sorted out in
the next day or two, I'll ask for help.
Cheers

Bear in mind that too loose is more stressful and wearing on the
rigging than too tight. "Just right", is obviously better than either
too loose or too tight, but if you have to err on one side or the
other...

Many people alos make the mistake of releasing all tension on their
adjustable backstay when leaving the boat. If you leave the forestay
slack, it's constantly working all the turnbuckles and that is BAD.


If your paddlewheel is off center as most are, you will get a different
reading from port to starboard tack as the flow will be different.
If you are trying to get the same reading on both tacks you may be
"over trimming" thus making the boat "seem" to handle differently
on one tack vs the other. I doubt it's the rigging. More likely the way
the boat is loaded side to side. Move your crew around and see what happens.
Regards
JR

mr.b wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:26:23 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:51:43 -0500, "mr.b" wrote:

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead
rig with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed.
Headsails are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.
If the rig tuning is off it should show up as a difference in sail
shape. Does the main seem fuller or flatter from one tack to the
other?

no appreciable difference that I can see

How about head stay sag?

as I said, it sags probably 5 inches anyway off-centre. This can't be
right. I guess my biggest concern is over-tightening the shrouds and
stays. The seldén.com reference offered by another poster shows
tightening turnbuckles a 3-4 mm. past hand tight will have your shrouds
at 15% of their breaking strength which they recommend as correct. I
think I've got 10mm past had tight already and the rig seems to me to be
way loose, at least on the one tack. Another poster recommends a Loos
gauge. Perhaps a useful tool.

Are the jib leads in exactly the same
position?

leads are same size, same brand, same position on their tracks

Have you tried adjusting them separately?

Yes, but there is no apparent difference in jib shape or position -it's
brand new i.e., 4 hrs of sail time.

Is the jib "luff" - leech
the same distance off the spreaders on both tacks?

yes, the clew on this #3 just reaches the spreaders so it's very easy to
judge

Many paddle wheel knot meters read differently on opposite tacks.

now this is something I'm going to have a closer look at as well.

When I was working with high tech instrumentation on my old Cal-34 we
ended up installing port and starboard paddle wheels with a switch box
which I
had to remember when tacking. It sounds like your boat is actually
handling differently however, not just a speed difference. If all else
fails try to get an experienced rigger and/or sailmaker to go out with
you.

thanks for the questions, it helps focus the mind. I've got some guys on
the dock who've been there and back. If I can't get this sorted out in
the next day or two, I'll ask for help.
Cheers

Sounds like your starboard shrouds are slipping at the terminals. Or the
head stay. Are they?

Brian

Please make certain your speed measurements are accurate use your GPS. If
your rig appears symetrical under load on both tacks, it means that your
hull isn't. The boat is plastic and they do change shape over time. This is
not unusual. To test this, the boat needs to be out of the water. Build an
absolutely square rectangle the length of the boat out of scrap and place
the rectanglular frame in the center position around the hull, parallel with
the center line of the hull. Take measurements equidistant along the
longitudinal length of the hull at 90 degrees to the frame rails, both on
the port and starboard sides. When you compare these measurements you will
easily identify the problem. This is a day job on a boat this size and easy
to accomplish. Of course you may not really want to know as ignorance is
bliss, but if it will give you peace of mind, go for it. Of course you
should also realize that it is not economic to correct. So you will either
have to live with the asymetric shape or sell the boat and buy another.
Steve

"mr.b" wrote in message
m...
I'm consistently a kt. slower on the port tack than the starboard and
it's starting to make me nuts. Almost as nuts as the "weather" on the
Great Lakes this "summer".

To start, all the standing rigging is new as of last year with about 40
hours of total sailing time on it.

I measured the mast for plumbness using the main halyard, then tightened
the uppers by hand keeping the mast in column. Then snugged the forestay
hand tight. Then attempted to induce some prebend by tightening the aft
stay, first hand tight, then with a wrench. Sighting up the main track
shows a slight aft bend, maybe an inch over my 34' mast height, then
checking again for straightness athwartship. Finally hand tightened the
single inner shrouds.

Out for sail testing and on the starboard tack the boat falls into the
groove and runs right up to hull speed with a #3 and the full main in
about 12-15kts of breeze. Slight weather helm and I can trim her for
hands off at hull speed.

Tack to port and we have to fall to leeward a bit to get her to
accelerate and she never really gets into a comfortable groove. More
pronounced weather helm and she seems to be struggling to come to hull
speed.

On both tacks the inner shrouds flop loosely and I know that will need to
be dealt with next time out. As well, the forestay sags at least 5-6
inches from the centreline. I've read that "hand-tight" is good enough
for shrouds and stays but this can't be right. My pointing ability can't
be what it could be with such a loose rig.

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead rig
with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed. Headsails
are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.

Steve Lusardi wrote:
Please make certain your speed measurements are accurate use your GPS. If
your rig appears symetrical under load on both tacks, it means that your
hull isn't. The boat is plastic and they do change shape over time. This is
not unusual. To test this, the boat needs to be out of the water. Build an
absolutely square rectangle the length of the boat out of scrap and place
the rectanglular frame in the center position around the hull, parallel with
the center line of the hull. Take measurements equidistant along the
longitudinal length of the hull at 90 degrees to the frame rails, both on
the port and starboard sides. When you compare these measurements you will
easily identify the problem. This is a day job on a boat this size and easy
to accomplish. Of course you may not really want to know as ignorance is
bliss, but if it will give you peace of mind, go for it. Of course you
should also realize that it is not economic to correct. So you will either
have to live with the asymetric shape or sell the boat and buy another.
Steve

"mr.b" wrote in message
m...
I'm consistently a kt. slower on the port tack than the starboard and
it's starting to make me nuts. Almost as nuts as the "weather" on the
Great Lakes this "summer".

To start, all the standing rigging is new as of last year with about 40
hours of total sailing time on it.

I measured the mast for plumbness using the main halyard, then tightened
the uppers by hand keeping the mast in column. Then snugged the forestay
hand tight. Then attempted to induce some prebend by tightening the aft
stay, first hand tight, then with a wrench. Sighting up the main track
shows a slight aft bend, maybe an inch over my 34' mast height, then
checking again for straightness athwartship. Finally hand tightened the
single inner shrouds.

Out for sail testing and on the starboard tack the boat falls into the
groove and runs right up to hull speed with a #3 and the full main in
about 12-15kts of breeze. Slight weather helm and I can trim her for
hands off at hull speed.

Tack to port and we have to fall to leeward a bit to get her to
accelerate and she never really gets into a comfortable groove. More
pronounced weather helm and she seems to be struggling to come to hull
speed.

On both tacks the inner shrouds flop loosely and I know that will need to
be dealt with next time out. As well, the forestay sags at least 5-6
inches from the centreline. I've read that "hand-tight" is good enough
for shrouds and stays but this can't be right. My pointing ability can't
be what it could be with such a loose rig.

I'm looking for tuning hints here. It's just a conventional masthead rig
with single lower shrouds and no backstay tensioner installed. Headsails
are hank-on. Main has 3 full battens.


I'm sticking to my guess that there is some current that's running
against him on one tack.

I know he disagrees, but that is my guess, especially if he's using a
GPS to determine speed.

One knot is a lot to have some condition like rig tuning, or hull
distortion, that you can't see easily.