Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

Why do you assume that the materials passing through the filter
are toxins? Perhaps they're nutritional carbohydrates? Such
assumptions and wording seem to show a bias against RO filters
in your response. In any case, you probably get a good dose of
the same 'toxins' in your city drinking water after the chlorination
has killed the bacteria.


AS it was explained to me, these boat RO systems, to be small, use very
high pressure on the membrane, as opposed to large commercial systems
like a public utility would use in a purification plant at low pressure.

This high pressure traps the bacteria against the membrane, where I
suppose it's like his little head is stuck in a hole his body can't fit
through, a crude cartoon-of-the-mind's-eye.

Now trapped in a high pressure environment, at some point, the bacteria
explodes, releasing its internal load of really small toxins onto the
surface of the membrane where it can, because of its tiny size crude
molecules pass through the membrane with the H2O, contaminating the
outlet water. The key, I'm told, is the high pressure, which rips many
biologicals apart into tiny pieces. I don't see why this is not a
possible scenario and a source of possible sickness for the drinkers.

We're still talking about FILTRATION. Anything small in molecular size
passes through because the holes have to be big enough for water to pass
through in large quantities. There are a lot of such molecules. Water
is a fairly large molecule because of its oxygen atom's atomic number.
I just don't think it's the holy grail the sales brochures profess it to
be. Dissent against the RO community is treated the same way as someone
who wonders how 6,000,000 bodies in Nazi concentration camps fit in such
a tiny space...to be attacked at all costs!



--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

In article ,
says...
Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

Why do you assume that the materials passing through the filter
are toxins? Perhaps they're nutritional carbohydrates? Such
assumptions and wording seem to show a bias against RO filters
in your response. In any case, you probably get a good dose of
the same 'toxins' in your city drinking water after the chlorination
has killed the bacteria.


AS it was explained to me, these boat RO systems, to be small, use very
high pressure on the membrane, as opposed to large commercial systems
like a public utility would use in a purification plant at low pressure.

Must be different from our greenhouse RO filter system, then. It
runs off the 40 to 65PSI from our well pump and tank.

This high pressure traps the bacteria against the membrane, where I
suppose it's like his little head is stuck in a hole his body can't fit
through, a crude cartoon-of-the-mind's-eye.

Now trapped in a high pressure environment, at some point, the bacteria
explodes, releasing its internal load of really small toxins onto the
surface of the membrane where it can, because of its tiny size crude
molecules pass through the membrane with the H2O, contaminating the
outlet water. The key, I'm told, is the high pressure, which rips many
biologicals apart into tiny pieces. I don't see why this is not a
possible scenario and a source of possible sickness for the drinkers.

You still haven't shown why you think the bacterial fragments
are 'toxins'. Toxins are generally considered to be special-purpose
chemicals released by an organism for a specific purpose.

Toxin:
"A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living
cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced
into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing
antibodies or antitoxins"

This definition doesn't seem to include fragments of dead bacteria.

We're still talking about FILTRATION. Anything small in molecular size
passes through because the holes have to be big enough for water to pass
through in large quantities. There are a lot of such molecules. Water
is a fairly large molecule because of its oxygen atom's atomic number.
I just don't think it's the holy grail the sales brochures profess it to
be. Dissent against the RO community is treated the same way as someone
who wonders how 6,000,000 bodies in Nazi concentration camps fit in such
a tiny space...to be attacked at all costs!


OK. I invoke Godwin's Law.


Mark Borgerson

Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

You still haven't shown why you think the bacterial fragments
are 'toxins'. Toxins are generally considered to be special-purpose
chemicals released by an organism for a specific purpose.

Toxin:
"A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living
cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced
into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing
antibodies or antitoxins"

This definition doesn't seem to include fragments of dead bacteria.


First, this isn't court so I don't have to "show" you anything. People get
sick drinking it, so it's a toxin. People get sick on cruise ships
drinking it, too.



--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

Mark Borgerson wrote:

snip
You still haven't shown why you think the bacterial fragments
are 'toxins'. Toxins are generally considered to be special-purpose
chemicals released by an organism for a specific purpose.

Toxin:
"A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living
cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced
into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing
antibodies or antitoxins"

You're talking about "exotoxins". Larry is talking about endotoxins
(I'm assuming).


This definition doesn't seem to include fragments of dead bacteria.

Endotoxins are typically lipopolysaccharide components of the cell
membranes of gram negative bacteria (like pseudomonads which like to
live in water). When the cells are lysed, the endotoxins are released.
However, and a big however it is, endotoxins are generally in the
range of 10 kda to 100000 kda or more, and the RO membranes are more in
the 1 kda range relative to retention.

We're talking *drinking* water here. The FDA allows the manufacture of
Water for Injection to be manufactured with dual pass RO (i.e. safe for
injecting into your veins). Problems do arise, however, when the
pressure is jacked up to deal with poorly maintained plugged membranes,
and you get seam or joint cracks, o-ring leaks, etc. that allow water to
bypass the membranes.

Like any other critical system, RO needs to be maintained properly to
work properly.

Keith Hughes

In article ,
says...


Mark Borgerson wrote:

snip
You still haven't shown why you think the bacterial fragments
are 'toxins'. Toxins are generally considered to be special-purpose
chemicals released by an organism for a specific purpose.

Toxin:
"A poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by living
cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced
into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing
antibodies or antitoxins"

You're talking about "exotoxins". Larry is talking about endotoxins
(I'm assuming).


This definition doesn't seem to include fragments of dead bacteria.

Endotoxins are typically lipopolysaccharide components of the cell
membranes of gram negative bacteria (like pseudomonads which like to
live in water). When the cells are lysed, the endotoxins are released.
However, and a big however it is, endotoxins are generally in the
range of 10 kda to 100000 kda or more, and the RO membranes are more in
the 1 kda range relative to retention.

Thanks for the explanations. It's been decades since my last biology
course. I'm not familiar with the kda term, so I'll have to look it up.

We're talking *drinking* water here. The FDA allows the manufacture of
Water for Injection to be manufactured with dual pass RO (i.e. safe for
injecting into your veins). Problems do arise, however, when the
pressure is jacked up to deal with poorly maintained plugged membranes,
and you get seam or joint cracks, o-ring leaks, etc. that allow water to
bypass the membranes.

Like any other critical system, RO needs to be maintained properly to
work properly.


Mark Borgerson

The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH batteries
don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will they last in a
car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.


Mark Borgerson

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
g...
In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH batteries
don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will they last in a
car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.

Even if the dial on the dashboard is set to indicate 'recharge' when the
battery falls to, say, 70%, people out on the road are going to discover
that you can go on driving for quite a while after this so the battery is
likely to go much lower than planned on many occasions.
Current advertisements suggest battery life will be about 5 years but I
suspect this is optimistic for reason above.
When a large and complex battery needs replacing, say after 5 years, the way
auto spares are priced will ensure that it will be more sensible to buy a
new car and start afresh rather than spending as much as a 5 year old car is
worth in order to renew its battery. And do not forget there is sure to be
an 'environmental' charge to safely dispose of the toxic substances in the
old battery.

Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
says...
The heck with this battery water stuff. Go Lithium-ion!
http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml
Only 5 grand a pop!
Gordon

Which raises a question about battery-driven cars. Those LiH
batteries don't last very long in my laptop computer. How long will
they last in a car given normal neglect?


Hybrid cars are designed to keep the batteries between 70 and 100
percent charged at all times. That won't be so easy with
an all-electric car. However, they may have the system
set up to use less than the full capacity of the batteries to
prolong the life.


Mark Borgerson



Lithium-Ion batteries in any product will not discharge past 50% as
there is a built-in nanny IC in ever battery that prevents deep
discharge, which destroys them completely.

Li-Ion, unlike Ni-Cd or Ni-Mh, are FLOAT batteries like your boat. The
less you discharge them, the longer they live. What's killing his
laptop is he leaves it discharged, rather than immediately recharging it
asap, or doesn't recharge it until it's fully run down, the complete
enemy of the Li-Ion battery pack. Continuously discharging a laptop
battery to the point of shutdown....then leaving it in this state for
hours instead of diligently recharging asap just kills them.
REcharging, even if only discharged 5%, asap will make them last the
life of the laptop. Leaving them plugged in with the CHARGED light on
does NOT destroy laptop batteries.

There is one problem with Li-Ion battery packs....out of sync. The
discharge curve stored in the IC gets further and further from the real
charge state as time goes by in all Li-Ion/Li-Polymer battery packs.
So, they APPEAR to hold less and less charge over time. What happens is
the charging state IC's charging curve becomes out-of-sync with battery
reality. To reset this IC, discharge the battery as far as the IC will
allow you to, to the point of automatic shutdown...then, IMMEDIATELY
recharge fully to recharge autoshutdown. Test the battery runtime and
if it's still shorter than it was, repeat this procedure no more than
three times. If it continues to fail, the battery pack is defective and
should be replaced. But, you'll find many "bad batteries" will simply
restore after 1 or 2 "cyclings" to reset the IC's charging curve to
reality.

My Gateway laptop and its original battery pack are 9 years old. The
battery pack has been "reset" about every 6 months since it was new,
recharging in between these resets (above procedure) as soon as possible
no matter how much it was discharged by portable operation. Battery
pack runtime is down around 10-15% in 9 years of operation like this,
which is way beyond its service life. A little care and loving can
really extend a Li-Ion/Li-Polymer battery life.

NEVER RUN DOWN YOUR SELLPHONE BATTERY ANY MORE THAN YOU ABSOLUTELY
MUST...Plug it back in to recharge at every opportunity and stop
bragging about you only have to charge it twice a month. Do the above
deep cycle once every 6 months. You'll never need another battery for
it. Leave it plugged in as much as you can really lengthens its service
life. DEEP CYCLING Li-Ion/Li-Polymer batteries over and over is
suicide...just like a boat battery.


--
-----
Larry
You can tell there's very intelligent life in the Universe
because none of them have ever tried to contact us.....

Mark Borgerson wrote:
In article ,
says...


Thanks for the explanations. It's been decades since my last biology
course. I'm not familiar with the kda term,

Its kilo-dalton. One dalton is the mass of one Hydrogen atom. When you
start talking about very minute masses - as in tangential flow (TFF) and
diafiltration systems (like RO as an example)- daltons are a common
unit, especially in the biotech world where TFF is commonly used for
protein purification/extraction for example.

Keith Hughes