I've looked at a boat today, and the broker mentioned that the only
problem of which he is aware is that there has been water ingress to the
rudder. This is a long-keeled boat with the rudder attached aft - top
and bottom - to the keel; the kind that just has a small opening for the
propeller. The boat is of solid GRP construction - no sandwich or core,
though I'm guessing that, in the case of the rudder, it's not just a
void.

Has anyone here experience of water in the rudder? What are the
implications of this happening?

Thank you for comments and suggestions. Any references to online
material will also be gratefully received.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

In article , Dave wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:44:58 -0000, Justin C
said:

Has anyone here experience of water in the rudder? What are the
implications of this happening?

Virtually all CSs get water in the rudder. It's SOP in cold climates to
drill a drain hole near the bottom of the rudder, and perhaps one at the top
as a vent, to drain the rudder at haulout, and refit the hole plugs before
launch. The rudders that haven't received this treatment have been known to
split from the expanding water when they freeze.

CSs? What's CSs? Sorry if I'm being obtuse, it's been a bit a stressful
few days, this is our first boat purchase.

I don't think freezing is much of a worry here (England, south coast). I
don't recall the last time the sea froze - I know I was living in
Brighton at the time, and that was over twenty-five ... ummm... twenty
seven years ago. I really can't see it happening in a marina surrounded
by apartment blocks. I'll not sweat that just now.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

Justin C wrote:
In article , Dave wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:44:58 -0000, Justin C
said:

Has anyone here experience of water in the rudder? What are the
implications of this happening?
Virtually all CSs get water in the rudder. It's SOP in cold climates to
drill a drain hole near the bottom of the rudder, and perhaps one at the top
as a vent, to drain the rudder at haulout, and refit the hole plugs before
launch. The rudders that haven't received this treatment have been known to
split from the expanding water when they freeze.

CSs? What's CSs? Sorry if I'm being obtuse, it's been a bit a stressful
few days, this is our first boat purchase.

I don't think freezing is much of a worry here (England, south coast). I
don't recall the last time the sea froze - I know I was living in
Brighton at the time, and that was over twenty-five ... ummm... twenty
seven years ago. I really can't see it happening in a marina surrounded
by apartment blocks. I'll not sweat that just now.

Justin.

The only issue is the tangs on the shaft assuming a stainless shaft.
There have been incidents where either the tangs inside the rudder have
been made from mild steel rather than stainless or an incorrect filler
rod was used and the tangs have rusted through at the root leading to
the rudder being free to rotate on the shaft and obviously total
steering failure.

IMO if the drained water is rusty or there is any significant rust weep
at any existing drip or rust weeps from the drilled drain hole or if
any movement between the rudder and shaft is detected when the wheel or
tiller is tied off and the blade is waggled forceably, something nasty
is probably happening inside the rudder. Options then include cutting
one or more inspection holes in one side of the blade and glassing it up
again afterwards, or various *expensive* non-destructive or minimally
destructive imaging systems that may well still leave you with
insufficient information to assess its safety or plan a repair strategy.

Repair could be handled by *any* competent yard and is difficult but
possible DIY if you have enough experience with GRP work and take the
metalwork to a pro. Specify recessed fillets of a resilient underwater
sealant where the shaft penetrates the rudder shell. GRP directly bonded
to stainless will crack at or near the join from thermal expansion
issues alone.

OTOH if there is no evidence of rust and no class history of rudder
problems its just drain and check annually when hauling out to prevent
frost damage while ashore.

The class association if there is one and/or detailed builder's plans
would be a big help.

IANAL but as the defect has been disclosed by the broker, if you accept
the boat and discover a more serious related problem you may have
limited recourse. You need an idea of the likely repair cost, a proper
survey and possibly competent legal advice.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:

In article , Dave wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:57:08 -0000, Justin C
said:

CSs? What's CSs?

Canadian Sailcraft. The first, the CS27, was designed by Camper & Nicholson,
and is, I believe, the smallest boat they ever designed. CS hired Ray Wall,
the boat's designer as its own when C&N shut down a design facility.

Ah, of course. I'd have got it if you'd given, for example CS27. Thanks
for clearing that up... actually, I've got to go back to the original to
work out why I asked

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

In article , IanM wrote:
Justin C wrote:
In article , Dave wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:44:58 -0000, Justin C
said:

Has anyone here experience of water in the rudder? What are the
implications of this happening?

The only issue is the tangs on the shaft assuming a stainless shaft.
There have been incidents where either the tangs inside the rudder have
been made from mild steel rather than stainless or an incorrect filler
rod was used and the tangs have rusted through at the root leading to
the rudder being free to rotate on the shaft and obviously total
steering failure.

IMO if the drained water is rusty or there is any significant rust weep
at any existing drip or rust weeps from the drilled drain hole or if
any movement between the rudder and shaft is detected when the wheel or
tiller is tied off and the blade is waggled forceably, something nasty
is probably happening inside the rudder. Options then include cutting
one or more inspection holes in one side of the blade and glassing it up
again afterwards, or various *expensive* non-destructive or minimally
destructive imaging systems that may well still leave you with
insufficient information to assess its safety or plan a repair strategy.

Repair could be handled by *any* competent yard and is difficult but
possible DIY if you have enough experience with GRP work and take the
metalwork to a pro. Specify recessed fillets of a resilient underwater
sealant where the shaft penetrates the rudder shell. GRP directly bonded
to stainless will crack at or near the join from thermal expansion
issues alone.

OTOH if there is no evidence of rust and no class history of rudder
problems its just drain and check annually when hauling out to prevent
frost damage while ashore.

The class association if there is one and/or detailed builder's plans
would be a big help.

IANAL but as the defect has been disclosed by the broker, if you accept
the boat and discover a more serious related problem you may have
limited recourse. You need an idea of the likely repair cost, a proper
survey and possibly competent legal advice.

The broker (yup, I know, don't trust him, the seller is paying him)
reckoned 1200 GBP to repair. I have a surveyor looking at it this week.
A previous survey of the vessel mentioned no give with the tiller tied
off and force applied to the rudder. I think I'll try to be optimistic -
and look at wind-vane options for backup.

That was an interesting read, thanks Ian.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

Justin C wrote:
In article , IanM wrote:
Justin C wrote:
In article , Dave wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:44:58 -0000, Justin C
said:

Has anyone here experience of water in the rudder? What are the
implications of this happening?
The only issue is the tangs on the shaft assuming a stainless shaft.
There have been incidents where either the tangs inside the rudder have
been made from mild steel rather than stainless or an incorrect filler
rod was used and the tangs have rusted through at the root leading to
the rudder being free to rotate on the shaft and obviously total
steering failure.

IMO if the drained water is rusty or there is any significant rust weep
at any existing drip or rust weeps from the drilled drain hole or if
any movement between the rudder and shaft is detected when the wheel or
tiller is tied off and the blade is waggled forceably, something nasty
is probably happening inside the rudder. Options then include cutting
one or more inspection holes in one side of the blade and glassing it up
again afterwards, or various *expensive* non-destructive or minimally
destructive imaging systems that may well still leave you with
insufficient information to assess its safety or plan a repair strategy.

Repair could be handled by *any* competent yard and is difficult but
possible DIY if you have enough experience with GRP work and take the
metalwork to a pro. Specify recessed fillets of a resilient underwater
sealant where the shaft penetrates the rudder shell. GRP directly bonded
to stainless will crack at or near the join from thermal expansion
issues alone.

OTOH if there is no evidence of rust and no class history of rudder
problems its just drain and check annually when hauling out to prevent
frost damage while ashore.

The class association if there is one and/or detailed builder's plans
would be a big help.

IANAL but as the defect has been disclosed by the broker, if you accept
the boat and discover a more serious related problem you may have
limited recourse. You need an idea of the likely repair cost, a proper
survey and possibly competent legal advice.

The broker (yup, I know, don't trust him, the seller is paying him)
reckoned 1200 GBP to repair. I have a surveyor looking at it this week.
A previous survey of the vessel mentioned no give with the tiller tied
off and force applied to the rudder. I think I'll try to be optimistic -
and look at wind-vane options for backup.

That was an interesting read, thanks Ian.

Justin.



If repair work is indicated:

I have some idea where this boat is likely to be lying from one of your
other threads. You really need local advice on who is capable of
performing a competent repair of this nature. Try to find a local
berth-holder NOT resident in the immediate area and have a chat about
who to use or rather who not to! There is one company based on the
river in question that I know from personal experience has on several
occasions done work of a poor quality and attempted to over-charge with
questionable items like charges for work not done. Regrettably as I no
longer have the invoices in question or the parts that had not been
replaced and I belive the company in question has changed hands
subsequently I cannot 'name and shame' them in a public forum. I am not
alone in having problems with them and anecdotally, finding a reliable
company in the area is harder than it should be (I mostly DIY so don't
have personal experience of their competition), so it was a factor in us
moving to a different home port. OTOH my old home port has some great
suppliers that I still use in preference to local alternatives in my new
home port or home town in spite of the difficulty of getting there.

If possible, postpone this repair work until you get the boat to your
home cruising area to avoid a lot of hassle.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:


--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: