On Apr 7, 5:27*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:







"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. *I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said Vic,

Ben's been in the biz all his life, and could bring a wealth of
Nautical knowledge to this place.

I have a few questions I'd like to ask concerning ports I bet he
could answer.

Like... why are only one or two outfits making nice bronze ports? With
the sky high prices these people charge there seems to be room for
more vendors. I bet Ben has a dozen old molds his dad used in WWII
just laying around un-used.

Joe

On Apr 7, 7:18*pm, Joe wrote:
On Apr 7, 5:27*pm, Vic Smith wrote:



On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. *I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said Vic,

*Ben's been in the biz all his life, and could bring a wealth of
Nautical knowledge to this place.

*I have a few questions I'd like to ask concerning ports I bet he
could answer.

Like... why are only one or two outfits making nice bronze ports? With
the sky high prices these people charge there seems to be room for
more vendors. I bet Ben has a dozen old molds his dad used in WWII
just laying around un-used.

Joe

Thank you Joe and Vic. I hope people can see the difference between
faceless spamming and an honest effort to engage with the consumer.

Joe, all those patterns are used today. Everything we cast is
Almag-35, an aluminum-magnesium alloy. We used to cast in bronze but
it became more expensive with more stringent environmental
regulations. From our perspective, the market for cast bronze ports is
very small, as we usually deal with individual clients instead of boat
builders these days. In my opinion, cast Almag is actually a superior
material to use for the majority of situations.

Ben Atkins
Atkins & Hoyle Ltd.
www.atkinshoyle.com

"Atkins & Hoyle Ltd. - #1 Davits, Cranes, Hatches, Ports, Hardtops"
wrote in news:3b55d8bc-b1e1-4bda-92dd-
:

From our perspective, the market for cast bronze ports is
very small, as we usually deal with individual clients instead of boat
builders these days.

To build for boat builders, you'd need a plastics plant, not
metalworking....

On Apr 7, 8:25*pm, "Atkins & Hoyle Ltd. - #1 Davits, Cranes, Hatches,
Ports, Hardtops" wrote:
On Apr 7, 7:18*pm, Joe wrote:





On Apr 7, 5:27*pm, Vic Smith wrote:

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 15:47:59 -0500, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 13:18:31 -0700 (PDT), Joe
wrote:

Greetings Ben,

Thanks for posting your link to boat related products. It's refreshing
someone willing to go on a public forum and talk about his products.

It's amazing how many ignore purse,and tennis shoes spam, but jump on
anyone with a boat related product.

You noticed that too?
We both must like coffee keeping our eyes open.

--Vic

For my own part, I assume that those spamming purses, tennis shoes and
Genuine Rolex Copies, etc., won't be back to read any replies or
complaints -- so why bother?

That's true. *I was really addressing Joe's first sentence.
Manufacturers can give good insights into their products.
Seen it on web forums.
Nobody has to take what they say as gospel.
They do open themselves to abuse here, and have to be careful how they
react - in the interest of the company they represent.
The larger point to me is if they show up they should be engaged as
you would engage them face-to-face.
No sense chasing them out when they can contribute knowledge.
Somebody mentioned Peggy Hall as an example.
I tend to take that tack.
This place is often a swamp, and if the water is cleared a bit I won't
complain that the clearing tool has a label on it.

--Vic

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well said Vic,

*Ben's been in the biz all his life, and could bring a wealth of
Nautical knowledge to this place.

*I have a few questions I'd like to ask concerning ports I bet he
could answer.

Like... why are only one or two outfits making nice bronze ports? With
the sky high prices these people charge there seems to be room for
more vendors. I bet Ben has a dozen old molds his dad used in WWII
just laying around un-used.

Joe

Thank you Joe and Vic. I hope people can see the difference between
faceless spamming and an honest effort to engage with the consumer.

Joe, all those patterns are used today. Everything we cast is
Almag-35, an aluminum-magnesium alloy. We used to cast in bronze but
it became more expensive with more stringent environmental
regulations. From our perspective, the market for cast bronze ports is
very small, as we usually deal with individual clients instead of boat
builders these days. In my opinion, cast Almag is actually a superior
material to use for the majority of situations.

Ben Atkins
Atkins & Hoyle Ltd.www.atkinshoyle.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Figures, regulations seem to stymie many good things.
Almag may be a superior product due to cost/profit but for lifetime,
strength and good looks I perfer Bronze.

So Ben, Jeff's a pretty sharp sailor, I doubt he would fib on your
davit being flawed I hope you contacted him and offered to pay for the
flaw. And now RingMaster is having problems getting parts.

Whats the deal? Do you stand behind your products, and your statement
to have parts or not?


Joe
Potential Customer

Joe wrote:
....
So Ben, Jeff's a pretty sharp sailor, I doubt he would fib on your
davit being flawed I hope you contacted him and offered to pay for the
flaw. And now RingMaster is having problems getting parts.


I haven't heard from Mr. Atkins - he would have to contact me through
this forum. Frankly, since the event was about 12 years ago, I don't
expect anything now. At the time I felt a bit forgiving - perhaps
something had happened while I wasn't there (that was the claim of A&H:
if I didn't see it bend, I can't prove it was their fault), perhaps the
dink was too big (but it worked for the following several years with no
trouble, why would it fail in the slip?), perhaps it really did cost
$280 to replace one tube. I only got ****ed later when I expected a bit
of sympathy but was laughed at.

I'm surprised when vendors don't realize that bit of "attitude" can be
very costly. A year or so before the davit incident I talked to the
Nonsuch president and sales manager at a show. I asked if certain new
features could be retro-fitted to my boat, and rather than explaining
why it would not be cost effective, they laughed, said "buy a new boat"
and turned away. What they didn't know was that my real reason for
being there was to talk to them about the possibility of upgrading to a
Nonsuch 36, which would have been a big sale for a then foundering
company. But in that moment, I thought, "no way in Hell I'll buy from
these Bozos." As fate would have it, Prout was showing some catamarans
at the show, and being primed for a change of heart, my long range plans
took a different tack that day.

jeff wrote in :

Joe wrote:
...
So Ben, Jeff's a pretty sharp sailor, I doubt he would fib on your
davit being flawed I hope you contacted him and offered to pay for the
flaw. And now RingMaster is having problems getting parts.


I haven't heard from Mr. Atkins - he would have to contact me through
this forum. Frankly, since the event was about 12 years ago, I don't
expect anything now. At the time I felt a bit forgiving - perhaps
something had happened while I wasn't there (that was the claim of A&H:
if I didn't see it bend, I can't prove it was their fault), perhaps the
dink was too big (but it worked for the following several years with no
trouble, why would it fail in the slip?), perhaps it really did cost
$280 to replace one tube. I only got ****ed later when I expected a bit
of sympathy but was laughed at.

The reason that I replaced my original set of A&H davits was because they
were too small and deforming. Static loading rates mean nothing when
you're in rough seas and pounding away.

My dinghy weighs about 110 lbs. My old set of davits had a rating of 120
lbs per davit. The new set is rated for 300 lbs per davit. You probably
need at least that 5x safety factor. And you definately need to have the
dinghy securely attached to the davits so that it doesn't swing/sway/etc.
It's taken me years to get my bridle system correct.

I think that davit companies do a dis-service to themselves by their load
ratings.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

It's funny someone mentions "attitude" in an earlier post. I always
found the "attitude" of the A&H people sent to man the booth at the
Annapolis boat show quite disturbing. I was blown off twice by these
front line people. Once when I balked at the price of their little
cardboard framed screens for opening ports and another time when the
girl laid the pitch on me that they only deal direct because that
allows them to keep their prices down. She only had a flip answer
when I then asked why they were more expensive than their competition
who sold thru a traditional dealer network.

Geoff Schultz wrote:
....
The reason that I replaced my original set of A&H davits was because they
were too small and deforming. Static loading rates mean nothing when
you're in rough seas and pounding away.

I agree completely. In my case, the davit failed in the slip; in fact I
think it was before it had ever left the slip. The replacement served
3-4 years before we sold the boat, including some severe conditions,
though not off-shore storm conditions.


My dinghy weighs about 110 lbs. My old set of davits had a rating of 120
lbs per davit. The new set is rated for 300 lbs per davit. You probably
need at least that 5x safety factor.

Does that mean that the "120 lb davits" can only handle a dinghy that
weighs 24 pounds? Or is it 48 pounds? In either case, there aren't too
many that light. Frankly, I'm glad my current boat has a massively
overbuilt bench/davit system.

And you definately need to have the
dinghy securely attached to the davits so that it doesn't swing/sway/etc.
It's taken me years to get my bridle system correct.

I think that davit companies do a dis-service to themselves by their load
ratings.

Yes. The picture of the 1200 (which I think is what I had) shows a soft
dink with a 6 hp engine. The "safe lifting load" for the pair is listed
as 180 lbs. My dink is about 100 lbs, perhaps a bit more with the oars,
etc, but I don't carry an engine.

One problem is that the price escalates quickly for even a small
increase in the "safe" load: $950 for 180 lbs, $1590 for 200 lbs, $1990
for 275lbs. For a proper offshore boat, heavier is definitely better,
but for a 30 foot coastal cruiser, the small set should be enough.