wrote:


Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:39:24 -0700, said:

Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:15:34 -0700, said:

Not to mention violating due process (14th amendment) in that the
"torture" is applied to individuals who have not been tried for a
crime.
I asked earlier which law school you received a degree from.
And speaking of using misdirection in lieu of substantive debate...

Since you obviously haven't a clue, let me give you a hint. Start with
the
right amendment.

Uhmmm, context: Liberty, Amendment: 14th, as in deprivation of "...Life,
liberty, or property..." without due process. Clearly, contextual
recognition is also not your strong suit. Putz.


Kieth, unfortunately, Dave appears to be one of those who believes that
the US Constitution should not apply to non citizens, even if they are
being incarcerated by the US; while at the same time the US government
is trying to impose the same principles espoused in the Constitution, at
the point of a gun to very country(s) where said non-US citizens where
abducted from... I am certain that I am not the only one who perceives
the hypocrisy of this stance.

Cheers
Martin

Marty wrote:
wrote:


Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:39:24 -0700, said:

Kieth, unfortunately, Dave appears to be one of those who believes that
the US Constitution should not apply to non citizens, even if they are
being incarcerated by the US; while at the same time the US government
is trying to impose the same principles espoused in the Constitution, at
the point of a gun to very country(s) where said non-US citizens where
abducted from... I am certain that I am not the only one who perceives
the hypocrisy of this stance.

Cheers
Martin

No, you certainly are not the only one. Bruce made the same observation
much earlier in this thread. I am hopeful that we can change this
perception - by changing our actions - over the next several years.
We'll see.

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in this
country was not long after 9/11, while working to build a facility to
manufacture a new stockpile of smallpox vaccine for the government, was
a news program where 2 liberal and 2 conservative national journalists
were asked if it was OK to torture suspects *if* it *might* save
American lives. All 4 said the equivalent of "hell yes!". I was
sickened, saddened, and ashamed that we could, as a nation, be such
gutless wimps that any action against the *other* (however defined)
person is justifiable if there's even the slightest chance that it
*might* save our butts. Pitiful.

Keith

wrote:

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in this
country was not long after 9/11, while working to build a facility to
manufacture a new stockpile of smallpox vaccine for the government, was
a news program where 2 liberal and 2 conservative national journalists
were asked if it was OK to torture suspects *if* it *might* save
American lives. All 4 said the equivalent of "hell yes!". I was
sickened, saddened, and ashamed that we could, as a nation, be such
gutless wimps that any action against the *other* (however defined)
person is justifiable if there's even the slightest chance that it
*might* save our butts. Pitiful.

Yeah, who are we anyway? Our lives are pitiful and worth nothing! How
dare we threaten, scare or hurt someone who is trying to hurt and kill
us?? We're not worth it!!!! We should protect murderous criminals
instead of trying to save our butts!!!

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:
wrote:

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in this
country was not long after 9/11, while working to build a facility to
manufacture a new stockpile of smallpox vaccine for the government,
was a news program where 2 liberal and 2 conservative national
journalists were asked if it was OK to torture suspects *if* it
*might* save American lives. All 4 said the equivalent of "hell
yes!". I was sickened, saddened, and ashamed that we could, as a
nation, be such gutless wimps that any action against the *other*
(however defined) person is justifiable if there's even the slightest
chance that it *might* save our butts. Pitiful.

Yeah, who are we anyway?

We claim to be a nation of laws, and we claim the moral high ground on
these issues in our dealings with the rest of the world.

Our lives are pitiful and worth nothing!

Not even remotely implied by *any* argument presented here. Feel free
to associate yourself with that remark if you like.

How dare we threaten, scare or hurt someone who is trying to hurt and kill
us?? We're not worth it!!!! We should protect murderous criminals
instead of trying to save our butts!!!

Murderous criminals who have not been even charged with a crime because
of lack of evidence? Face it Stephen, no matter how enamored or torture
you may be, it is illegal. Write your representatives and ask them to
introduce legislation legalizing torture because it's the only way to
keep you safe - see how successful you are.

Keith

wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
wrote:

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in
this country was not long after 9/11, while working to build a
facility to manufacture a new stockpile of smallpox vaccine for the
government, was a news program where 2 liberal and 2 conservative
national journalists were asked if it was OK to torture suspects *if*
it *might* save American lives. All 4 said the equivalent of "hell
yes!". I was sickened, saddened, and ashamed that we could, as a
nation, be such gutless wimps that any action against the *other*
(however defined) person is justifiable if there's even the slightest
chance that it *might* save our butts. Pitiful.

Yeah, who are we anyway?

We claim to be a nation of laws, and we claim the moral high ground on
these issues in our dealings with the rest of the world.

Then why don't we take reasonable measures to find out what we need to
find out to stop these mass murderers! The moral high ground includes
and excludes many things, but one thing it includes is putting the well
being of innocents ahead of the rights of mass murderers!

Our lives are pitiful and worth nothing!

Not even remotely implied by *any* argument presented here. Feel free
to associate yourself with that remark if you like.

yes!". I was sickened, saddened, and ashamed that we could, as a
nation, be such gutless wimps that any action against the *other*
(however defined) person is justifiable if there's even the slightest
chance that it *might* save our butts.

How dare we threaten, scare or hurt someone who is trying to hurt and
kill us?? We're not worth it!!!! We should protect murderous criminals
instead of trying to save our butts!!!

Murderous criminals who have not been even charged with a crime because
of lack of evidence? Face it Stephen, no matter how enamored or torture
you may be, it is illegal. Write your representatives and ask them to
introduce legislation legalizing torture because it's the only way to
keep you safe - see how successful you are.

I believe in the moral high ground of doing what is right over and above
any conflicting laws.

Stephen

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
news
I believe in the moral high ground of doing what is right over and above
any conflicting laws.

Stephen

So we should be "A Nation of Laws," unless those laws get in our way.
Gotcha.

Stephen Trapani wrote:
Then why don't we take reasonable measures to find out what we need to
find out to stop these mass murderers!

Sure... I got nothing against that.

..... The moral high ground includes
and excludes many things, but one thing it includes is putting the well
being of innocents ahead of the rights of mass murderers!


Does this have anything to do with the issue at hand (tortureof
prisoners)?

The main point that you (and Dave, and other pro-torture people) have
failed to make is that using torture actually accomplishes anything at
all to prevent terrorists. Instead, you blame -us- for failing to use
torture.... sorry, but terrorism is not my fault. You can take
responsibility yourself if you like. But you can't just change the
laws of our nation to suit your own moral perceptions (just like I
can't).

Furthermore, a group of people who -were- in a position to change the
laws of our nation (or, more accurately, temporarily change a few and
ignore a lot of others) agree with your moral perceptions....
specifically, that torturing prisoners is OK... and they don't really
seem to have gotten such great results.

DSK

To all you armchair lawyers, you don't know Jack if you ain't been there!
Is it torture if you ask Charlie a question and when he won't answer,
you push his comrade out the helo door at a 1000 feet and then ask him
again?
Ever wonder why there was only highly rated US prisoners in N Nam?
Ever wonder why there was no gook prisoners taken in S Nam?
Are snipers unusual and cruel?
No Jap prisoners on the islands in WW11? Why?
Let's face it. War is war and when your ass is on the line, anything
goes!
Waterboarding is child's play! It is designed to scare, not torture
or maim.
Gordon

Gordon wrote:
To all you armchair lawyers, you don't know Jack if you ain't been there!
Is it torture if you ask Charlie a question and when he won't answer,
you push his comrade out the helo door at a 1000 feet and then ask him
again?
Ever wonder why there was only highly rated US prisoners in N Nam?
Ever wonder why there was no gook prisoners taken in S Nam?
Are snipers unusual and cruel?
No Jap prisoners on the islands in WW11? Why?
Let's face it. War is war and when your ass is on the line, anything
goes!
Waterboarding is child's play! It is designed to scare, not torture or
maim.
Gordon


I would suggest you read the United Nations Convention against Torture
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

The US is a signatory to this convention, ratified under Reagan.

Then you could go on and read about the United Nation Committee against
Torture, the US is a member. The produced a document called the
Istanbul Protocol, you might want to read that.

The fact that the US routinely thumbs it's nose at this treaty while at
the same time claiming the umbrella of UN Sanction and Resolution
violation as grounds for laying waste to an entire country does almost
irreparable damage to the US international image.

Drowning people is not child's play, it is in fact not particularly
unusual to kill the subject while "playing".

Cheers
Martin
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Dave wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 21:21:19 -0700, said:

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in this
country was not long after 9/11

One of the scariest, and most depressing things I've witnessed in this
country was watching the collapse of the Twin Towers from my office window.
I wasn't close enough to see the people jumping from windows, however.

A comparison on par with saying that the Pearl Harbor attack was the
scariest, most depressing thing you'd seen, in response to a statement
about the US surrendering to Japan out of fear (yes, a hypothetical).
Good job.

Keith