Two meter troll wrote:
yes the "smart bombs" do less damage to the surroundings than the old
carpet bombing. a bomb is a bomb it has a blast radius smart bomb just
means it "hits" what it was dropped to hit sometimes. and laser guided
just means it homes in on a target that is "painted" by an observer
this can be on the ground or from the air. some bombs are set up to
penetrate a hardened target. all of them have a blast radius of
several yards to several hundred feet depending on payload and
fragmentation characteristics. most of what the us drops are 500lb
bombs and they have a nice big blast radius.

There were quite a few 5000 pounders dropped, takes out most of a city
block,,, but damned accurately....

Cheers
Martin

wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote
..... if you strongly
suspect someone of being about to kill a large group of innocent people,
there is justification in torturing him or of course even killing him if
it helps you stop it from happening.

And why would torturing him or killing him "help stop it from
happening"? He is already a prisoner and not in a position to be any
threat.

I'm sure you would agree that *if* you obtain information that prevents
slaughter of innocents by dunking someone in water a few times, you have
not done something wrong, you have done something good.

BTW information obtained by torture is not reliable. People being
tortured say anything. And usually, a competently-organized military
or paramilitary organization operates on a 'Need To Know' basis....
hence anything short of capturing a General willnot yield any useful
info.

I agree with you to the extent that if you torture someone for some
other outcome besides actually preventing murder, you have done
something wrong. I am not arguing that all torture is okay, I'm arguing
that there is such a thing as torture that is okay.

For example, the Nazis would have tortured low-ranking Allied soldiers
(and certainly did) but did not find out where or when the Normandy
invasion was to take place.

But you have chosen your level of morality, logic & facts are not
going change your mind.

On the contrary, I'm arguing points that all reasonable humans should
agree on.

Stephen

Stephen Trapani wrote:
I'm sure you would agree that *if* you obtain information that prevents
slaughter of innocents by dunking someone in water a few times, you have
not done something wrong, you have done something good.


No, actually I woould not agree that torture is "good" under any
realistic circumstances.

You can construct all sorts of theoretical justifications; but the
facts are pretty clear... torture does not yield useful or reliable
intel. OTOH it's great if you want to convert a few heretics before
you burn them; but fortunately most of the civilizedworld has out
grown that.



.... I am not arguing that all torture is okay, I'm arguing
that there is such a thing as torture that is okay.


And that's what makes you sick in the head.... or at least not
civilized enough to be making serious decisions that affect the rest
of our society.


On the contrary, I'm arguing points that all reasonable humans should
agree on.


Yep... check the definition of neurotic vs psychotic.

True whackoes always think they're "reasonable."

Tell you what, how about sticking to posting about boats & sailing.

DSK

On Sat, 7 Mar 2009 19:29:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

how about sticking to posting about boats & sailing.

Excellent advice - for everyone,

and don't cross post.

On Mar 7, 3:13 pm, Marty wrote:
Two meter troll wrote:
yes the "smart bombs" do less damage to the surroundings than the old
carpet bombing. a bomb is a bomb it has a blast radius smart bomb just
means it "hits" what it was dropped to hit sometimes. and laser guided
just means it homes in on a target that is "painted" by an observer
this can be on the ground or from the air. some bombs are set up to
penetrate a hardened target. all of them have a blast radius of
several yards to several hundred feet depending on payload and
fragmentation characteristics. most of what the us drops are 500lb
bombs and they have a nice big blast radius.

There were quite a few 5000 pounders dropped, takes out most of a city
block,,, but damned accurately....

Cheers
Martin

LOL ayep accurate all right.

thanks Martin

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:13:48 -0500, Marty wrote:

There were quite a few 5000 pounders dropped, takes out most of a city
block,,, but damned accurately....

What 5000 pounders? Nobody ever built that particular size.

Casady

"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
I'm so glad Obama and the congress won. In fact, I voted for Obama. I
wanted all the kook lefties to see all the mistakes Obama was going to
make and all the "corruption" that would still exist. This stuff is
inherent in the system and had little to do with Bush. Did you see
yesterday where the Obama administration reached a deal with the Justice
department so the Bush AG firing scandal didn't go to trial? They didn't
want to take the chance that the executive branch would lose any power
that the Bush admin. had gained.

The kooky left has been jumping on Bush for stuff that has been going on
for 200 years. Now the chickens will come home to roost.

Stephen

Boy are you going to have egg on your face if he turns out to be a good
President. What'cha gonna do then? Vote for the Crushed Lintball?

On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 12:18:29 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 18:13:48 -0500, Marty wrote:

There were quite a few 5000 pounders dropped, takes out most of a city
block,,, but damned accurately....

What 5000 pounders? Nobody ever built that particular size.

Casady

Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28)

A pair of chartered Airbus A310 transport aircraft carrying 5,000-lb
GBU-28 bunker buster bombs staged through Scotland's Prestwick
International Airport outside Glasgow on 22 July 2006 to refuel and
give the crew a rest before continuing to deliver the bombs to Israel.
At least two more flights were anticipated before mid-August.

The GBU-28 laser guided bomb was developed, built, tested, and used in
combat in a 17 day period. The deepest Iraqi bunkers were secure from
the best penetrating bomb, the GBU-24A/B, with the I-2000 warhead.
Coalition leaders required the capability to destroy these vital
command and control facilities. Texas Instruments and Lockheed
combined their efforts to build the 18 ft long bomb. TI adapted the
seeker from the GBU-24 and Lockheed built the bomb body from discarded
eight inch howitzer barrels. The Air Force initially contracted for 30
bombs but the cease fire started after only two were employed. Two
more of the bombs were used in testing before the bombs were dropped
in combat and the Air Force expended two or three more in additional
tests after the war. The Air Force ordered an additional 100 GBU-28s
with the BLU-113 (8 inch gun barrel) bomb body and stocks remained low
due to the limited number of targets and the only fighter capable of
employing it initially was the F-111F.

The Guided Bomb Unit-28 (GBU-28) bomb is designed to penetrate
hardened targets before exploding, capable of penetrating 100 feet of
earth or 20 feet of concrete. The GBU-28 was initially developed in
1991 for penetrating hardened Iraqi command centers located deep
underground. This "bunker buster" was required for special targets
during the Desert Storm conflict and was designed, fabricated and
loaded in record time. The GBU-28 is a laser-guided conventional
munition that uses a modified Army artillery tube as the bomb body.
They are fitted with GBU-27 LGB kits, 14.5 inches in diameter and
almost 19 feet long. The operator illuminates a target with a laser
designator and then the munition guides to a spot of laser energy
reflected from the target.

Some considerable confusion exists in the literature concerning the
weight of this bomb. Although nominally a 5,000 pound bomb, it appears
that the actual weight is somewhat less than this, and that the 5,000
figure is arrived at by rounding up [the 250, 500, 1000 and 2000 pound
figures for the Mk80 family are also such approximations. Statements
that it is a 4,000 pound bomb reflect a similar rounding, but rounding
down and rounding rather further from the exact number. Reports that
the bombs weigh 4,637 pounds, and contain 630 pounds of high
explosives, are too precise to be in error. Reports that the bomb
weighs 4,700 pounds are in close agreement with this more precise
number. A report that the bomb incorporates a 4,400-pound penetrating
warhead may reflect the weight of the filled bomb body, minus guidance
head and tail kit.


Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
I'm sure you would agree that *if* you obtain information that prevents
slaughter of innocents by dunking someone in water a few times, you have
not done something wrong, you have done something good.


No, actually I woould not agree that torture is "good" under any
realistic circumstances.

You can construct all sorts of theoretical justifications; but the
facts are pretty clear... torture does not yield useful or reliable
intel. OTOH it's great if you want to convert a few heretics before
you burn them; but fortunately most of the civilizedworld has out
grown that.



.... I am not arguing that all torture is okay, I'm arguing
that there is such a thing as torture that is okay.


And that's what makes you sick in the head.... or at least not
civilized enough to be making serious decisions that affect the rest
of our society.

Well, by all civilized standards, allowing the slaughter of innocents to
protect the rights of a killer is sick in the head, isn't it? Clearly
you have taken your rationalizing on the issue so far that it makes no
sense anymore. Common with herd mentality issues like this.

On the contrary, I'm arguing points that all reasonable humans should
agree on.


Yep... check the definition of neurotic vs psychotic.

True whackoes always think they're "reasonable."

Tell you what, how about sticking to posting about boats & sailing.

Good advice...for yourself.

Stephen

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 09 Mar 2009 08:07:06 -0700, Stephen Trapani
said:


wrote:
Stephen Trapani wrote:
I'm sure you would agree that *if* you obtain information that prevents
slaughter of innocents by dunking someone in water a few times, you
have
not done something wrong, you have done something good.


No, actually I woould not agree that torture is "good" under any
realistic circumstances.

You can construct all sorts of theoretical justifications; but the
facts are pretty clear... torture does not yield useful or reliable
intel. OTOH it's great if you want to convert a few heretics before
you burn them; but fortunately most of the civilizedworld has out
grown that.



.... I am not arguing that all torture is okay, I'm arguing
that there is such a thing as torture that is okay.


And that's what makes you sick in the head.... or at least not
civilized enough to be making serious decisions that affect the rest
of our society.

Well, by all civilized standards, allowing the slaughter of innocents to
protect the rights of a killer is sick in the head, isn't it? Clearly
you have taken your rationalizing on the issue so far that it makes no
sense anymore. Common with herd mentality issues like this.

The problem with Doug's argument is that it relies upon labeling as a
substitute for thought. Rather than dealing with the specific question you
pose, he labels your proposal "torture," and deems that sufficient to
foreclose further discussion of the policy question.

The technique is very much of a piece with Neal's game of labeling
specific
actions "socialism" or "fascism," deeming the label an adequate
substitute
for consideration of pluses and minuses of particular actions.

I will credit Doug with possibly adding a substantive claim that
waterboarding doesn't work. I say "possibly" because again rather than
making that specific claim he invokes the T word to claim that "torture"
doesn't work, attempting to sweep the specific action into a much wider
net
full of red herrings.


Torture doesn't work. It's a fact. Unless you watch 24. Then it works.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com