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#1
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yeah, I know "plonk"
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#3
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yeah, I know "plonk"
On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:03:23 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote: And, it's well-documented that it doesn't work. Bruce In Bangkok wrote: I would disagree with you. In one case I witnessed the individual who "confessed" admitting that he was beaten until he confessed, in a second, an individual who stated he witnessed the act said that it worked and several descriptions I have read of WW II British agents in Occupied France specifically state that the Germans gained sufficient information from partisans that they were able to capture others in the group. As well there are fairly well documented cases in Russia of people who, for some reason, confessed to outlandish crimes and were executed. Generally attributed to torture. In short the "it doesn't work" argument needs a lot of qualification to be wholly correct. Oh, I don't think so. Crime confessions obtained by torture, where the primary proof of guilt is the confession, doesn't make the info accurate. Only that you punished somebody for a crime. That covers the Russian incident you refer to... No, I believe that it proves the point; that the Russians were able through "torture", perhaps being sleep deprivation and starvation combined with long interrogations, were able to "convince" people to publicly confess to crimes that the individuals concerned must have known would result in their execution. As for the Nazis, well they may have caught some partisans by using info gained by torture, but they did not eradicate the Resistance... in fact the Resistance grew steadily. And in the end, who won You are taking a rather long ranged view, perhaps far fetched. The Germans were able to identify other members of a specific group, which I suspect was their immediate aim. So yeah, the evidence seems very strong that torture doesn't work.... thanks Bruce! DSK Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) So, but this logic, the US gov't should sanction techniques just like those Germany carried out? Why do you persist in misunderstanding? I was replying specifically to the statement "And, it's well-documented that it doesn't work." The question of whether to apply the technique is primarily a moral one that I do not propose to address as it is an extremely complex subject. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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#4
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yeah, I know "plonk"
"Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message
... On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:03:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" wrote: "Bruce In Bangkok" wrote in message . .. On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote: And, it's well-documented that it doesn't work. Bruce In Bangkok wrote: I would disagree with you. In one case I witnessed the individual who "confessed" admitting that he was beaten until he confessed, in a second, an individual who stated he witnessed the act said that it worked and several descriptions I have read of WW II British agents in Occupied France specifically state that the Germans gained sufficient information from partisans that they were able to capture others in the group. As well there are fairly well documented cases in Russia of people who, for some reason, confessed to outlandish crimes and were executed. Generally attributed to torture. In short the "it doesn't work" argument needs a lot of qualification to be wholly correct. Oh, I don't think so. Crime confessions obtained by torture, where the primary proof of guilt is the confession, doesn't make the info accurate. Only that you punished somebody for a crime. That covers the Russian incident you refer to... No, I believe that it proves the point; that the Russians were able through "torture", perhaps being sleep deprivation and starvation combined with long interrogations, were able to "convince" people to publicly confess to crimes that the individuals concerned must have known would result in their execution. As for the Nazis, well they may have caught some partisans by using info gained by torture, but they did not eradicate the Resistance... in fact the Resistance grew steadily. And in the end, who won You are taking a rather long ranged view, perhaps far fetched. The Germans were able to identify other members of a specific group, which I suspect was their immediate aim. So yeah, the evidence seems very strong that torture doesn't work.... thanks Bruce! DSK Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) So, but this logic, the US gov't should sanction techniques just like those Germany carried out? Why do you persist in misunderstanding? I was replying specifically to the statement "And, it's well-documented that it doesn't work." The question of whether to apply the technique is primarily a moral one that I do not propose to address as it is an extremely complex subject. Cheers, Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) It's not just a moral question. Sorry. It's a practical one on several levels. Not only does it not work it works against the country that condones or uses it. This latter practicality is one that the previous administration ignored much to our detriment. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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#5
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Yeah, I know "plonk"
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:03:23 -0700, "Capt. JG" said: So, but this logic, the US gov't should sanction techniques just like those Germany carried out? Ah, another straw man. Twasn't mine strawman... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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