On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen

So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?

No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law. The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen
So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?
No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law.

You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish
denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and
aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you
don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They
specifically put rationality above the Talmud.

The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?

The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

Stephen

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:06:39 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:11:25 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:
Snipped...

When we see Israel and the US setting up a secular/democratic society,
were the vast majority of citizens subject their religious books to
rational criticism and reject the parts that are racist or wrong in some
way, we shouldn't condemn those societies because they still follow
parts of those books, we should congratulate them for making progress
out of the dark ages and do everything we can to help them flourish,
especially when they are surrounded by extremists who want their own
version of the dark ages to return.

Stephen
So, you are going to rewrite three holy books? I don't believe it's
gonna work.

First of all there are at least two versions of the Christian's holy
book and one of them used by a bunch that argues they were appointed
by the founder of the religion and another gang that insists that the
first lot is corrupt.

The Moslems believe that their book is the actual word of God.
Dictated by him/her/it directly to Muhammad.

The Jews believe that certain parts of their book is, again, the
direct word of God, handed down on tablets of stone.

I'm interested, who are you going to get to manage this project?
No need to rewrite. Just do what all denominations do: Offensive
passages are thought of as metaphorical or not actual commandments for
our time (only relevant to the times they were written in). Using this
method you can make the actual words say almost anything you want them
to say.

Stephen

Won't work. Absolutely for the Moslems who believe that, as I said,
the Koran is the actual word of God. The Jews have centuries of study
of The Law and probably won't accept an outsider interfering with
Their Law.

You don't get it. There already are numerous Moslem and Jewish
denominations who already do it. The "extremists" take the violent and
aggressive parts seriously, the rest don't, etc. I'm not sure what you
don't understand. Israel itself is not based on the Talmud. They
specifically put rationality above the Talmud.

True - the "Modern Jews" and the Orthodox. the problem is the Orthodox
guys are the noisy ones who don't want their interpretation of the Law
changed.

The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?

The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.

As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the
law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must
obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem
youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage
made in Heaven.



Stephen
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.

That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Personally I believe people gravitate toward what they want to believe.
There are so many different denominations and religions conveniently
designed for any and all psychological weaknesses that finding one that
fits ones own is usually easy. The extremist murderers have murder in
them already and find a religion that encourages it.

So the solution is as I said at the beginning of this discussion, and
exactly as Israel, the US and all true democractic societies have done,
put rationality in charge of the country as best you can and make
religion conform to rationality. This is *exactly* why supporting
Israel is so important. We have to fight for this important advancement
in humanity everywhere we find it. If we don't we will lose it.

Incidentally, rationality will eventually destroy religion entirely,
given enough time, because of course, no religion really makes sense.

As far as Moslems living among the infidel without clashing with the
law see the recent Dutch legislation emphasizing that Moslems must
obey Dutch laws; the Moslem youth burning cars in France; the Moslem
youths bombing subways in England. I suggest that it isn't a marriage
made in Heaven.

These are still the extremists among them. There are millions of
"moderate" Muslims living in the US and other democractic countries that
never create a stitch of conflict.

Stephen

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.

That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,

Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are both
Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what the Koran
says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without clashing with
the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can still
make it say just about anything you want because God isn't crystal clear
about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All* denominations do it.

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,

Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen

T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable.

Rather then try to convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Dave wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
said:

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same.

That is neither a fair nor a reasonable reading of Bruce's post.

Sure it is. I said that religions, inlcluding Islam, already have
accamodated themselves to governments via changing how they view their
holy book

Dave wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
said:

Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.

Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television.
Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same.

That is neither a fair nor a reasonable reading of Bruce's post.

Sure it is. I said various denominations of Islam have accommodated
themselves to democratic governments. As evidence I gave the example of
many Muslims within the US and other democracies who do not feel
compelled to break any laws due to their religion. He apparently thinks
this condition does not exist and any attempt to suggest it does will
result in a death threat against me by Islam. Ridiculous on the face of
it, isn't it?

Stephen