Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor.

Wrong. Just plain wrong. There is a cut-off point which is arguable but the
fact is there exists a certain size and complexity boat under which a
survery would not only be unnecessary but downright foolish. The 22-footer
that Kafertoys traded for a VW engine is one such example. It would be
downright stupid to hire a professional surveyor for such a boat.

I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.

I applaud your knowledge and initiative. If it can be done with automobiles
it can certainly be done with boats which tend to be simpler and more easily
evaluated.

But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. His boat.

Poppycock! Far more people die in automobiles than boats every day of the
year, year in and year out.

An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.

Even a novice sailor can learn how to survey (which is a stupid term to
begin with) his potential purchase. Rather than calling it a survey how
about we just say "check it out?" All the items to be checked can be
researched from books about the topic and articles posted on the Internet.
Again, keep in mind there is a cut-off point (I place it at about 30-feet
and above on a system loaded vessel) at which a professional survey has
merit. Smaller than that I maintain it is foolish NOT to learn how to check
it out yourself. Everything you learn about it will sever you well in the
future and it involves things you eventually will need to know so why put
off the learning process any longer than necessary?

But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.

Correct and NOBODY has more abiding conern for his vessel than the person
who is buying it and will have to live with his decision to buy it.

Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?

They should.

Does he check all engine linkages?

They should.

Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.

They should.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?

They should.

Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?

They should.

Tell you something about rope you don't know?

They should.

Does he do anything [you] WON'T do before you cast off?

He should.

Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?

He should.

Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?

Never - it's always as is where is. Not responsible for oversights.

Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?

Mostly.

The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.

Exactly!

Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

--Vic

I'm as experienced as they come. I know more about what to look for in
sailboats than ANY professional surveyor. Guaranteed! Ask your professional
surveyor where he lives before you hire him. If he lives ashore then don't
hire him. If he hasn't worked building boats don't hire him. He's pretty
much clueless. His is book learning with little or no practical experience
to back it up. You have to have BOTH to know your trade.

I've lived aboard and have been around sailboats for 23 years now. I've
worked as an MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) building boats for Irwin
Yachts. My job was to install systems, test them to be sure they worked as
ordered and then sign them off for the inspectors to evaluate them. Never
had an inspector complain about my work. Was even sent out to the Caribbean
a couple times on larger Irwins (I worked on the 43 line) to troubleshoot
and repair warranty problems.

The best place to gain knowledge of what works and what doesn't work, what
succeeds and what fails is to spend lots of time around boats in general and
at boatyards in particular. Ask questions. Be nosey. All the things that
fail will be evident in a busy boatyard. What it takes to fix the failings
can be discussed and viewed. Blisters, for example, there is a method to
repair them that works and there are lots of methods that do not work and
are just a temporary cover-up. You should know which is which.

It is not difficult if you spend one or two months in a summer knocking
around a busy boat yard to become more proficient than most surveyors who
tend to miss more than they find. You can't really blame them because, for
them, it is just a routine and boring job after a while. Many spend more
time filling out papers than actually inspecting things. Much that they
report on is nothing but a clever dodge or hedge written mostly to exonerate
them should they fail to take note of something that fails soon thereafter.
For you, contemplating the purchase of your new home or conveyance, it is
more personal and you'd damned well better get it right. Nobody can get it
as right as you can. Checking out boats is not rocket science. Learning how
is easy. If you aren't interested in learning how then forget being a sailor
because you don't have what it takes.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.


Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:52:37 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:



Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.

Informative. Thanks.

--Vic

On Nov 23, 2:52�pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:51:03 -0600, Vic Smith





wrote:
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. �They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. �I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. �I trust myself. �I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. �When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. �His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. �Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. �The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. �Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

Wilbur was right in one respect about surveys: �There is probably a
certain price point where it doesn't make sense, but that has nothing
to do with the length of the boat, more to do with its age and
condition. � On the other hand a free boat can sometimes be the most
expensive one of all.

A good surveyor looks at more boats in a year than most people will in
a lifetime. � Ideally you will find a surveyor with experience with
the type of boat you are interested in, and know its strengths and
weaknesses. �I have always learned something from every survey that
I've ever had done, and have saved quite a bit of money as a result.
The survey report serves as the starting point for price
re-negotiation, almost always more than paying for itself. � Very few
owners will renegotiate the selling price unless you can document your
issues with a written survey report.

The survey also gives you a cooling off period between your original
offer and the point where you are 100% committed to the deal. � If the
purchase contract is properly written you can reject the boat for any
reason, "subject to survey and sea trial", with no obligation other
than the cost of the survey and haul out.

On larger boats it is common to have two surveyors: �One for the boat
itself, and one for the engines. � The engine surveyor will perform
compression testing if applicable, come along for the sea trial, and
usually perform an oil analysis.

Last but not least, many insurance companies will not issue a policy
without a recent survey.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking
questions

don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few
minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake
right.

I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I
need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want.

I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten.

Mario

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:40:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking
questions

don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few
minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake
right.

I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I
need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want.

I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten.

Mario

While it may be true that an interested and experienced buyer may do a
more thorough inspection than a surveyor, if the potential buyer has
"fallen in love" with the vessel, he will, perhaps unconsciously,
overlook faults that an impartial surveyor will notice and report.

The surveyor should be impartial - he should not stand to gain from
either encouraging or discouraging the sale. Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.



--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

That could be tricky, right?
Closed community and all.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that
one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers
That's in a wider community than boat sales.
In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is
left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships!
Recommendations are good though.

--Vic

On 2008-11-23 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B said:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by
the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging
the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor
recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and
preferably do not even know the selling broker.

We asked around the dock and found a surveyor that gently suggested a
couple of times that the boat he was surveying might not serve the
needs of the buyers. The ignored him, but got better deals because of
what he found wrong.

Oh, and they later agreed with his assessment.

I'm told that's unusual behavior in surveyors. Some opine that doing
that is unethical, but *I* paid for his services, so he's working for
me.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

You'll note that doctors seldom treat their own family members.

--
Roger Long