You want the surveyor working entirely for you and beholden only to you.

Typically, you agree on a price before the survey and then the estimated
cost of fixing anything necessary to make the boat legal and safe is
deducted if it is not something that can be clearly seen and accounted for
at the time the price is negotiated.

--
Roger Long

On Nov 24, 10:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:14:51 GMT, "Janet O'Leary"



wrote:

Only have the survey done on the boat you want. The results of the
survey almost always come up with items that are negotiating points
for the final sale price. Pay the surveyor the $400. He may find
something that saves you substantially more than that on the sale
price. The survey may also discover problems that will make you glad
you spent $400 for the warning before walking away from a disaster.

Amen. See "High Time" sections in my gallery for how we walked away
from a VERY nice boat. The eventual buyer immediately spent
(according to the selling broker, with whom we remained friends
afterward, for many reasons) $10K on electrical fixes; the others he
didn't know about. See my analysis, extremely - nay, overly -
conservative on how much it would cost to remedy the many problems,
one of which, very significantly, was loose tabbing - something which
we had to remedy on our boat after the wreck. It was the opinion of
the surveyor (a prior Morgan QC and Quality Control manager in the
entire time of the production of our type of boat) that there had been
a collision damage repair in the bow area based on the un-fair shape.
Having done a wreck repair with a VERY significant section of damage,
I know that it's not a biggie - but the fact that it wasn't faired to
the shape, in retrospect, with our experience, would suggest that
whoever did it wasn't the craftsman that the one who relaid our
delaminations was.

High Time was the idea source for several improvements we put in our
boat, and in the end, perhaps, remedying the faults in that boat might
have been much less than what we put into ours to bring ours to where
it is today. So, it's all a crap shoot, and, unfortunately, if you
don't have the depth of experience we've gained in doing our work, you
can't possibly know. That's where a very thorough, critical (not to
bust a deal, just to have the evil eye), surveyor can make your
purchase - if not "safe" - at least fully informed...

And, FWIW, we paid him to come across Florida from St. Pete to Ft.
Lauderdale to do both (High Time and the one we bought) surveys, we
valued his direct experience so much. The fact that he was
universally recommended in St. Pete helped :{)) He, too, BTW, remains
a friend.

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at and


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Janet O'Leary wrote:

When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey?

Never. The surveyor is hired by the buyer and responsible ONLY to the
buyer.

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...
trimmed some
When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have
the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400
dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these
postings, I got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only
lose the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test
the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in
excellent
condition.


Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated.
You're one of those socialists!

What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the
responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs to
decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product. Somebody
else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR burden. From
each according to his ability to each according to her needs. Karl Marx
would be proud of you.

I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily
because he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged!

Grow up, girl.

Wilbur Hubbard


Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short selling?
The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the
"true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock
price will go down.

Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the
prospective
buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller
knows that
there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that
the buyer
will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the survey
expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and
this helps reach the "true" price of the boat.

That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc.

This seems reasonable to me ..

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the
surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem.


If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a
surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are
local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals
develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that
the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at
least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than
when they sit.

--
Roger Long
=============================

When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have
the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400
dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings,
I got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only
lose the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test
the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in
excellent
condition.


I think it's better for the buyer to pay for the survey. In my case, I paid
for the survey, and the seller paid for the haul/wash/splash, which is about
the same cost. Usually, the buyer pays both, but it's negotiated.

You can do a lot ahead of a potential survey, by confirming lots of the
stuff yourself. If you're confident that you've caught everything, aren't
fooling yourself because you *want* the boat, and you don't have to worry
about insurance, you don't need a survey.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:01:38 -0500, "Roger Long"
said:

Typically, you agree on a price before the survey and then the estimated
cost of fixing anything necessary to make the boat legal and safe is
deducted if it is not something that can be clearly seen and accounted for
at the time the price is negotiated.

That is the way it's generally done. However, if I were selling a boat I'd
tell the buyer at the outset that the agreed price is the price regardless
of what a survey finds. If he doesn't like the survey he can cancel the
contract, but there will be no renegotiation of the price.


That might have worked a few years ago, but nowadays, it likely won't fly.
Maybe... you never know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...
troll sh*t removed

Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short
selling?
The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the
"true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock
price will go down.

Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the
prospective
buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller
knows that
there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that
the buyer
will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the
survey
expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and
this helps reach the "true" price of the boat.

That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc.

This seems reasonable to me ..

It sounds reasonable, but it's not workable and isn't reality based. You
need to pay for the survey yourself to ensure you get the information you
need. The surveyor doesn't even want to see no less talk to the other
party... just the one paying the bill. As I said, you can negotiate a lot of
stuff. One possible thing would be to have the owner haul/splash. It's about
the same amount.

FYI, you might also want to avoid trolls.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:18:46 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the
surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem.


If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a
surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are
local and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals
develop close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that
the yard owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn,
at
least unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than
when they sit.

--
Roger Long
=============================

When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have
the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend
$400
dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these
postings,
I got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only
lose the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test
the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is
in
excellent
condition.


I think it's better for the buyer to pay for the survey. In my case, I
paid
for the survey, and the seller paid for the haul/wash/splash, which is
about
the same cost. Usually, the buyer pays both, but it's negotiated.

You can do a lot ahead of a potential survey, by confirming lots of the
stuff yourself. If you're confident that you've caught everything, aren't
fooling yourself because you *want* the boat, and you don't have to worry
about insurance, you don't need a survey.

Until you try and get insurance... Which you will need to stay at most
marinas... And you would be extremely foolish to be without, anyway.
When a $3000 sailboat breaks free in a storm and hits a $750k
sailboat, or several of them...

There are many people who don't care about insurance, mainly because they
don't put their boats in marinas. As I said, if you're going to need
insurance, then you'll likely need to get a survey.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Nov 23, 1:51*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. *They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. *I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. *I trust myself. *I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. *When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.
But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.
His life relies on his transport. *His boat.
An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. *Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?
Does he check all engine linkages?
Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.
Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?
Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?
Tell you something about rope you don't know?
Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?
Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?
Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?
Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?
The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. *The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. *Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.
Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

--Vic *

for me it depends on what i am doing with the boat. if i am picking up
a boat to reloft it and rebuild it i dont get a survey because im just
gonna rip the boat apart and any rot will come to light. if i plan on
doing some fixup and flip work i get a survey to find out if there are
problems i have over looked and to see if the price is worth the
headach. if i am buying a plastic boat i tend to not get a survey
because i am almost obligated to rip the transom and house off of the
boat and fix the rot issues. (never seen a plastic boat that didnt
have rot issues in these places) If i am getting a boat to use with my
students i dont get a survey because i am going to take the boat apart
and rebuild it and each problem i run into i use as a teaching point.
surveyers are best used when you are plunking down a bunch of cash and
want to negotiate price. good surveyers can find problems that you and
the seller may not have looked at (soft places next to the keel, rot
under pipes, electrical problems, keel cooler problems, rot under the
mast step, ETC.)

steel boats i always get surveyed no matter the size, or what i am
going to do with it. to much can hide under paint and i dont want to
waste time kneedle gunning the entire hull if i dont have to. engines
are another always have surveyed deal I want a list of all the stuff
wrong with the power plant and a good mech on hand to let me know if i
ought to pull it or fix it.
I dont get electrical surveys done at all, ever. there is not a used
boat on earth that does not need all the electrical ripped out and
replaced.

I tend to get anything over twenty feet looked at after i do a fix up
and go to great lengths to have a clean bill when i am done. I have
one set of eyes, it is valuable to me to have another set being
critical of my work and to see that i have not overlooked something.

for smaller boats i let the buyer get a surveyer to look it over and
urge them to find one out of area. I have a good rep with the guys and
gals in this area and that can cause problems if i want to make a
honest deal, after all these folks know i want to sell the boat and i
am friends with them so the trend is for them to give me the benifit
of the doubt.

some boats the best guy to hire is not a surveyer. rather a marine
archetect would do you a better job. many old steel boats have been
refit over the years and sometimes stability is comprimised or the
boat is no longer able to be sailed in fresh water. some sailboats
have to big of rig, to small a rig, wrong angles for standing rigging,
bad rake, under sized sticks, whimpy mast steps, over all bad design,
a bunch of other stuff that a surveyer will not catch. the archetects
job is to run the numbers, find the flaws and let you know.

the weakness of getting a survey or having an archetect go over things
is that some folks consider them to be the last word, allow them to
make decisions, or give opinions. not good when buying a boat you want
advise and data not opinions.

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...
trimmed some
When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have
the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend
$400 dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these
postings, I got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only
lose the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test
the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is
in excellent
condition.


Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated.
You're one of those socialists!

What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the
responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs
to decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product.
Somebody else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR
burden. From each according to his ability to each according to her
needs. Karl Marx would be proud of you.

I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily
because he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged!

Grow up, girl.

Wilbur Hubbard


Hubbard ,, are you familiar with short selling? Stock market short
selling?
The reason that short selling is important to the market is because the
"true" price of a stock is revealed when someone is betting that the stock
price will go down.

Now,, apply this to a boat transaction. The seller is telling the
prospective
buyer that the boat is in perfect condition. All the while, the seller
knows that
there is a flaw, a serious flaw, with the boat. The seller is hoping that
the buyer
will not find the flaw. By asking the seller to shoulder half of the
survey
expense, the seller is forced to reveal the flaw before the survey .. and
this helps reach the "true" price of the boat.

That is: the boat less the repair, etc for the flaw.. etc.

This seems reasonable to me ..



You are very naive, then. Most smart sellers of a used product will state on
the Bill of Sale something such as "as is, where is." A seller would be
stupid to sell a used boat without such a disclaimer as he is in no position
to offer any kind of a valid warranty or to haggle over it in court. In many
states a seller is required by law to reveal any known safety defects in a
product he is selling. As usual, however, the general rule is buyer beware
as a seller can always claim and it's impossible to prove otherwise that he
didn't know anything about any and all defects.

In other words it is entirely up to you and yours to determine if your used
product is a decent buy.

Wilbur Hubbard