On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

That could be tricky, right?
Closed community and all.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that
one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers
That's in a wider community than boat sales.
In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is
left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships!
Recommendations are good though.

--Vic

You'll note that doctors seldom treat their own family members.

--
Roger Long

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:07:28 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a
surveyor recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the
sale, and preferably do not even know the selling broker.

That could be tricky, right?
Closed community and all.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen "relationships" that
one might think don't exist among realtors/brokers/inspectors/sellers
That's in a wider community than boat sales.
In the end it seems a personal character check and trust is what is
left. In fact, that's how I find out about relationships!
Recommendations are good though.


On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away
who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it
to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little
chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from
them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price.

"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:40:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:


because it looks like I started this you can see why I'm hereasking
questions

don't get me wrong I have problems just trusting anyone to spend a few
minutes checking something that I will spend days and weeks on tomake
right.

I think with the advise from those here I will get the knowledge I
need to make it sea worthy enough to enjoy the way I want.

I am thankful already for the info I have already gotten.

Mario

While it may be true that an interested and experienced buyer may do a
more thorough inspection than a surveyor, if the potential buyer has
"fallen in love" with the vessel, he will, perhaps unconsciously,
overlook faults that an impartial surveyor will notice and report.

The surveyor should be impartial - he should not stand to gain from
either encouraging or discouraging the sale. Some people claim that
you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by the selling broker,
just in case he may be biased towards encouraging the sale.



--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca


I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the surveyor.
This has happened once or twice without a problem.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:11:48 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
Another thread touched on this, and it may deserve more than it got.
It was suggested that one can do their own survey.
Let's eliminate boat newbies. They need a surveyor.
I always buy used cars. I never take them to a mechanic, because I
know my used cars. I trust myself. I never burned myself once I knew
used cars. When I was inexperienced I bought a couple lemons.
That's why I learned all about used cars.
I don't expect others to follow my path with cars.

Definitely different for boat ownership. For example, if you desire
insurance, you'll likely need a survey.

But a sailor is different than a typical car driver.

Absolutely.

His life relies on his transport. His boat.

Absolutely, up to a point. Rigging for example... I can guess, but I don't
have enough experience to know for certain, especially if you don't know
when it was done last.

An experienced sailor should know how to survey a boat himself -
maybe. Since I don't have a boat yet, I sure can't speak as an
experienced sailor.
But from what I've read about what surveyors do, and from what I've
gleaned from the experienced sailors here, it seems there are many
writing here that know more about glass, gear, electrics, rigging, and
rot than the typical surveyor.
Many here may be somewhat weak on engines, but does the surveyor
typically do a compression test and oil analysis?

No, but you can hire a diesel mechanic to do an engine survey. Typically,
this isn't done, unless the engines are big/expensive. The key items can
be
checked by anyone... e.g., the overall look/feel/vibration (or lack) when
running, the texture, smell, look of the oil (analysis is cheap - $30).
Does
it smoke when you start or smoke under load? Don't let the owner tell you
"it's nothing."

Does he check all engine linkages?

All? In a limited, accessible way, sure. He's not going to climb into the
engine compartment, to look at the connection to the trans. He'll try the
gears and give you his impression.

Does he reveal electric wiring or test electronics that you can't do.

Definitely will/should comment on the electrics and electronics. Probably
won't test harness anything. Either it appears to work or it doesn't...
even
to the point of saying the fuse it blown.. how come?

Does he point out a sail tear you can't see?

Perhaps. Mine looked at the jibs without unfolding them, and he saw the
main
up.

Does he run his hand over cable for frays where you can't or see rust
that you can't see?

Standing rigging... yes. Other cables... doubtful.

Tell you something about rope you don't know?

If you ask.

Does he do anything WON'T do before you cast off?

Not sure what you're asking... usually, they don't like to give an overall
opinion during or right after the survey when you and the owner are
standing
there. They don't want a confrontation. Mine did... told me, "Buy this
boat.
I don't usually say this." The owner didn't hear him, so I went over and
told him what he said. :-)

Is it seeing loose tabs, hull voids, core rot?

Definitely going to comment on what he finds. Loose tabs?

Does he give you a guarantee/warrantee on the inspection?

No guarantee/warranty... no way.

Or is it mostly a second-opinion/peace-of-mind feel you get?

Definitely, but it's from someone who sees hundreds of boats a year. If
you're going to buy a boat, you need to sail a couple of dozen before you
can get a feel for what works for you. You also get USCG requirements
confirmation, unsafe situations that are not necessarily obvious... after
all, you're fairly motivated to buy it at this point. It's nice to have
something in your face that you might otherwise discount.

The bank sent an "appraiser inspector" to examine my house as part
of the mortgage requirements some years ago. The guy couldn't tell
me anything new that I didn't know from my own inspection, and missed
plenty I saw. Cost the bank a few hundred for that - passed along to
me no doubt.

Yeah, the big deal with our houses appraiser was that he found the
termite/dryrot/whatever damage that we already knew about, since it was
disclosed in all instances. Then, he did a market analysis (surveyor does
this also), which we argued with a couple of times and got it changed.
IMHO
the surveyor was right on the money every time I used one.

Like to hear from the experienced boat owners here.
Might learn something.

The survey isn't that expensive... I paid between $10 and $14 per linear
foot. Most surveyors have a minimum, so it's usually not worth it for
dinghy.

If you'd like to see my last survey, I'd be happy to email you one.

Thanks, that's enlightening. I'd like to see a real survey, and my
address is real. I just check it occasionally.
Or you might prefer to post it on the RBC website, maybe without the
surveyor's name. Others might be interested in seeing it, and
comparing it to what they've seen/paid for. Your call.
If you send it to me I'll keep it private.

--Vic


Actually, it's on my photo website. Can't imagine why the surveyor would
mind. He did a wonderful job.

http://picasaweb.google.com/SailNOW....caliburSurvey#

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 2008-11-23 20:57:51 -0500, Wayne.B said:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:48:06 -0800, Peter Bennett
wrote:

Some people claim that you _should not_ use a surveyor recommended by
the selling broker, just in case he may be biased towards encouraging
the sale.

And that is absolutely correct. I go out of my way to find a surveyor
recommended by two or more people who have no interest in the sale, and
preferably do not even know the selling broker.

We asked around the dock and found a surveyor that gently suggested a
couple of times that the boat he was surveying might not serve the
needs of the buyers. The ignored him, but got better deals because of
what he found wrong.

Oh, and they later agreed with his assessment.

I'm told that's unusual behavior in surveyors. Some opine that doing
that is unethical, but *I* paid for his services, so he's working for
me.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

"Capt. JG" wrote

I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the
surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem.


If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a
surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local
and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop close
relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard owner
really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least
unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they
sit.

--
Roger Long

"Wayne.B" wrote

On my last major boat purchase I used surveyors from 100 miles away
who had been recommended to me by a reliable source. It was worth it
to me paying their travel expenses knowing that there was little
chance of hidden relationships. I received invaluable advice from
them and saved $50K from the originally negotiated price.


Ah, we agree again. I should have read the whole thread first.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote

I would never use a surveyor hired by the seller unless I knew the
surveyor. This has happened once or twice without a problem.


If it's a big buck sale with a lot riding on it, the cost of bringing a
surveyor in from out of the area can be well worth it unless you are local
and have a good handle on their reputation. Often, the locals develop
close relationships with the yards and know, for example, that the yard
owner really wants that boat out of there. They also learn, at least
unconsiously, that they get more referrals when boats move than when they
sit.

--
Roger Long
=============================

When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400
dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings, I
got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only lose
the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in
excellent
condition.

"Janet O'Leary" wrote in message
...
trimmed some
When making an offer subject to survey,, is it proper or common to have
the
seller and the buyer share the cost of the survey? As I've posted, I'm
looking at
a couple of sailboats, and since I am on a budget, I'd hate to spend $400
dollars
and have the surveyor tell me the boat is junk. As I read these postings,
I got to
wondering if the buyer should ask the seller to share the cost of the
survey. This
way, if the seller knows there is a hidden defect, he/she will not only
lose the sale,
but also lose some money. Wouldn't this be a way for the buyer to test
the
seller, especially if the seller is telling the buyer that the boat is in
excellent
condition.


Now, I think I understand why your husband wishes to remain inebriated.
You're one of those socialists!

What you say above is only to say "somebody else" needs to share the
responsibility and cost of your personal decisions. Somebody else needs to
decide for you whether or not it is wise to purchase a product. Somebody
else should help you pay. Somebody else needs to carry YOUR burden. From
each according to his ability to each according to her needs. Karl Marx
would be proud of you.

I think your hubby probably escaped into an alcoholic haze primarily because
he no longer wishes to carry your burden. Atlas Shrugged!

Grow up, girl.

Wilbur Hubbard