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#12
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Wooden Yacht restore and maintenance cost questions & adviceplease.
On Mar 21, 9:19 am, wrote:
Hi, I have a series of questions that could possibly be served by a chat with a decent Yacht surveyor but I would like some real life feedback before starting to engage professionals. Consider me to be researching. To set the picture I am based in the UK & I have a hankering for a wooden Classic, say a 30 to 35 foot yacht for my girlfriend & I to enjoy for weekend cruising and channel hopping. Old fibre glass yachts in the same price ranges that friends have or have had don't really appeal. I am not averse to getting my hands dirty having gutted & refitted my house myself and I have friends who are carpenters and am reasonably capable with wood myself. However, I am not experienced in steaming or fixing frames and more intricate pieces of wood work I would expect to find during a restore and have never worked on a wooden yacht. So, if I were to purchase a wooden yacht of around 30 - 35 foot range for an initial outlay of say £10 - 20k what kind of pitfalls can I expect? Please be assured a survey would be undertaken for assesement. o Can anyone provide an example of costs refitting decks to a similar wooden vessel? Self-fitted marine-ply + teak or alt. vs a yard fitting cost? Of course I'm assuming deck supports and knee's to be good. o Can anyone provide an indication of costs to strip, recaulk and prime/paint the exterior? Time is a factor here, is it even vaguely sensible to consider machine use (ie: sandblasting may be an damaging sacriledge) o Any rough cost descriptions for replacement of a 15 or 20hp engine? Assuming a yard to refit here, only estimate I have are engine unit in the region of 2k. Has anyone good experience in a complete engine rebuild for significantly less. o Rough cost descriptions for standing rigging replacement on a cutter for example, 30 or 35 foot? o Rough costs for sails for a 35 footer for example? (exampling cutter, gaff etc if vastly different) o Rough costs for having keel bolts pulled and replaced? Of course the inital assumption may be flawed to assume working on a £15K boat. It may be there are real life examples where that is simply a false economy. House restoration has taught me that removing layers reveals more problems but I have no experience in costs in the Classic wooden yacht world. Should a basket case be expected for that much or is it a reasonable figure? Perhaps someone can example worst case scenarios with real life pricing guestimates. Worst case scenario if keel wood/backbone turns out to be soft once stripped and serious work is required? (ie: hull split and keel and deadwood replacement) Worst case if a survey highlighted multiple ribs to be removed and replaced? Say 50%. Worst case costs if the floor or parts of the floor must be renewed to secure ribs to keel? Worst case costs of the ruddern or attachment points are rotten? These costs may be capable of being absorbed but equally may just make it pointless if the end value is less than the sum total of vessel + repair. All and any other experiences are valid, I am ignoring the cost of storage as land is available for long term working but long term drying raises questions. Is there an opinion on long term land based storage of a classic while work is carried out? Planks splittings from drying effect, warping etc once removed from constant immersion. I'm not sure if I have brain dumped too much so all and any feedback is gratefully recieved. Thanks. Well, I am a marine surveyor and a licensed marine engineer. I have two old wooden yachts. I even use old roofing tar in some places. (don't tell anyone) which is free at any old roofing store, as it isn't legal to use any more. Lets look at what you want to do step by step. Remember, the most important part of the restoration is what you buy to restore. I have a 1949 Chris Craft and a 1968 TollyCraft. 33' and 34'. I have a stainless steel shower, and thinks that make these boats into hotels. And it is cheap to free to do your own quality work. I am not looking to charge you. Everybody is scared someone is going to send them a bill. If you want to go over restoration step by step, my email is Thomas, Percy and Downard Marine Surveying |
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#13
posted to rec.boats.building
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Wooden Yacht restore and maintenance cost questions & adviceplease.
On 21 mar, 17:19, wrote:
Hi, For what it's worth we (my Dad and us 2 bros) did that, with a 1934 6 metre intl. - really depends on your budget, we did it over 20 years. The real boatbuildng/rebuilding of the hull was done by a yard - and not all at once, bit by bit and the boat was sailable inbetween times. What we learnt was; - get the boat seen by an experienced surveyor, a wooden yacht that has been in salt water all its life, the wood is "pickled" and is either sound or soft - soft bits have to be replaced - Don't go near a plywood boat - which I understood you weren't thinking about from your previous posts -Try and find a "classic" from a reputable yard, though as the interest in them has grown this is getting more difficult, but not impossible, you just might break even if you sell later -Masts (wooden) rigging and sails are V expensive (for any type of large yacht) and you have to be careful with modern materials... we were pulling the hull apart until we devised an attachment in s/steel to spread the load in a 60 yr old boat -Can't comment about engines, we didn't have one -Every winter, you have to sand down and re-varnish/paint - not to the wood! but on a large yacht that makes for a lot of surface!... -Sometimes in owning a wooden boat you need a very deep wallet! All that said it's worth it! these old boats "sing" you can feel they're happy sailing! and for the comments of people that see your boat tied up, or being photographed on the water. I know I'm not really replying to your question - no prices... it's difficult over 20 yrs but I have in my head a figure of roughly 50'000 UKP over this period for hull work... Where we did all the preparation work for the yard. (My Dad was always very secretive about how much he was spending on the boat - my mother wouldn't have liked it!) HTH Anton |
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#14
posted to rec.boats.building
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Wooden Yacht restore and maintenance cost questions & advice please.
"...erratic" wrote in message
... On 21 mar, 17:19, wrote: Hi, SNIP - Don't go near a plywood boat - which I understood you weren't thinking about from your previous posts -Try and find a "classic" from a reputable yard, SNIP Getting OT but I couldn't resist rising to the bait regarding "don't go near a plywood boat". Given a limitless budget, I would love to own a 'real' wooden boat, but in the real world a plywood boat can provide lots of affordable fun and be easy to repair. Plywood boats are a bit like GRP boats with osmosis - nobody wants them, but they sail pretty well! Yes, plywood does rot (like all wood) but it is really very easy to replace large pieces without any specialised boatbuilding skills. My 28 year old plywood yacht is 31' overall, lives in the water 360 days per year, yet maintenance has been manageable (so far, in my ownership for 6 years). Some might even argue that my boat is a "classic" - a 'Dogger' designed by van der Stadt in the 1960s. J |
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#15
posted to rec.boats.building
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Wooden Yacht restore and maintenance cost questions & advice please.
Hello. And welcome to the world of 'real' boats :-)
Myself, I have a 45' wooden trawler. It was built in 1961 and in rather good condition, but was suffering from a few years of differed maintenance. First off, I would suggest you look at www.woodenboat.com. This site has a forum with perhaps the most knowledgeable folks on Wooden boats on the net. Second, I would suggest you seek out knowledgeable folks local to you with experience with wooden boats. I am located in the PNW of the USA, and am fortunate to have access this increasingly shrinking knowledge base. Will also add, there seems to be 3 classes of 'knowledge'. 1) Purists: It must be done this way, and only this way. These folks are very bright, and also very critical in their approach. Most boats were not built originally in the way they see as best practices. These folks will guide you to a very very nice way, and also very very expensive. 2) Get-er-done: These folks will take the approach that if I can keep her floating for another year, that is good enough. Somewhat correctly, they approach wooden boats as a boat with a defined life, and the goal is to just keep her going until she dies. Plan on lots of Gue in a Tube from these folks, salty advice, and little actual experience. 3) Middle of the road folks. These are the ones you want to find. They have skills, and want to see those skills passed on. They have experience like #1, but also recognize that there are several approaches to doing things, and the Gold Plate is not always the best approach. Find someone whose job is actually working on boats, as opposed to inspecting them. They both have a purpose, but in this case you want someone with the experience to be able to not only know when a corking job is needed, and also able to do it with a learned hand. Sometimes you also need to be careful also of those employed at Ship Yards. Often they get pressured to just get it done and out quickly. And over the years, they are forced to do too many short cuts. Not all are this way, just something to watch out for. In my case, I have found a local independent shipwright of the #3 type, and hire him every time I haul the boat to help inspect, as well as teach me. Third: One needs to understand why they are looking at a Wooden boat. There are a few reasons, and typically one has some component of all of them. One might be looking at a Wooden boat because the admire a specific designer or craft, or this specific boat might have some historical meaning and they feel compelled to preserve it. The other extreme is someone has very very little cash, and just wants cheap. Of course, in between are the ones (I like to put myself here) who recognize the 'heart' of traditional wooden boats, but also the value one can get in them in terms of boat for the buck. This third aspect is rather important to be honest about. If you fall into the true cheap group, you will be able to locate a boat that is floating, in the 10m range, for a few thousand $. Might even be able to locate a Dock Queen for free. But also, you will not want to put much money into this (remembering that being cheap is the PRIME motivate here). These folks also tend to be the 'Get-er-done' type of folks as well. These folks seek out the max size for $, and do not care too much about condition of the boat. As long as it floats, and often boats in this group floating is about all they can do. Anything beyond a day sail in fine weather would be risky... If however you are the type who is looking to preserve a specific design, well, these folks also will purchase a boat with little regard to cost. They however will also be facing potentially HUGH repair bills. Folks in this group are not concerned if 70% of the ribs need replacing. A stern, or even the whole keel is not too much of an issue. Taken to its extreme, they may end up replacing the entire boat with new wood, a little at a time. Maybe ending up with a token board of the 'original. These folks also tend to be served by the Purests type of repair folks. This last group of folks I admire a lot, they are doing things for true soul reasons. They also will end up spending $100,000's in refitting a boat, and it will truly be a work of art. The prior group I do not particularly mind in a live and let live view, but it is these folks who tend to give Wooden Boats a bad name. It can at times be hard to locate dock space, insure a wood boat, or even get one hauled out. If you recognize the truly cheap folks and their approach, you can understand why. So, I guess in the end I am not too happy with the truly cheap group. Now, onto the middle group. Here we are looking to wood boats partly due to their value (in terms of boat for $$), but also because we like working with a living craft. A boat made of wood is different then FG or steel, it floats different, it moves different, all is different. It also does require more work to bring back to shape when they have been neglected for a while, but assuming it was well built in the beginning my experience has been that upkeep us not that much different then say a FG boat. (But this is another topic....) With this middle group, one tends to be more selective in locating a boat. You need to look at original construction materials and techniques: What are the fasteners (Bronze -- Iron, Screw -- Nail). Planks and material used. Need to look at the condition: Fixing a few frames is no issue, a lot is, pass. You need to really love a boat to want to replace the keel or stem. Hull sound, or in need of refastening? There are good values out there, but one needs to be careful not to select a boat which will require too much structural work. When it comes to repairs: Fact is: If you are not prepared to do most of the work yourself, it will never come out $ wise to own a wood boat. Skilled labor is just too high, and you will need skills either hired and/or learned. Here is where the % of Love for a boat comes into play. Love tends to cause man to do foolish things with their money :-) Myself, I purchased a good condition 45' trawler for little money. The hull was in great shape (I have had to replace two frames, and re-corked perhaps 300' of the hull). It had a new motor, but also had about 10 years of differed maintenance and the insides were removed. When I am finished, I will have about 1/2 the cost into it (boat, materials, contract labor only) vs. if I purchased a like wood boat already repaired. And it will be about 20% of what a like 'kind' of fiberglass boat would cost. So, there is real value here. During this time I also have a very enjoyable hobby, and we all get out on the water often. Now, I would not have purchased this boat if it needed extensive frame, or keel work. Nor if the motor needed to be replaced right out. Perhpas not if the decks were all soft. There are just too many options out there to take on that level of challenge. On the Worst Case questions you ask: Good questions: My response would be, does not really mater, cause if you were looking at Worst Case, you should not purchase the boat. (unless you are in the type who is looking to preserve a craft, then cost is no object). In terms of investments: I have about $15,000 into my restoration to date. About $5,000 is to the boat / structure its self, the rest is electrical / plumbing / electronics / inside. She is usable, sea worthy, and has almost all the amenities I am looking for. But there is perhaps another $10,000 to go to get her to the point where I feel she will be 'done'.. I have been working on her for 8 years now. (Did I mention time needed for refits :-) And one other thing I have learned: There is NEVER the case where one can just replace a board and be done when it comes to rot. Your examples of a leaking deck, if the deck is soft, plan on the deck and also underling structure. In one worst case I found a small soft spot along one header on the cabin. After digging it out, I ended up replacing a 4x6 beam about 12' long. Not really a big issue, just remember Rot is like icebergs: You only see the tip! Ok, this is very very long. Hope it helps you some. On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Hi, I have a series of questions that could possibly be served by a chat with a decent Yacht surveyor but I would like some real life feedback before starting to engage professionals. Consider me to be researching. To set the picture I am based in the UK & I have a hankering for a wooden Classic, say a 30 to 35 foot yacht for my girlfriend & I to enjoy for weekend cruising and channel hopping. Old fibre glass yachts in the same price ranges that friends have or have had don't really appeal. I am not averse to getting my hands dirty having gutted & refitted my house myself and I have friends who are carpenters and am reasonably capable with wood myself. However, I am not experienced in steaming or fixing frames and more intricate pieces of wood work I would expect to find during a restore and have never worked on a wooden yacht. So, if I were to purchase a wooden yacht of around 30 - 35 foot range for an initial outlay of say £10 - 20k what kind of pitfalls can I expect? Please be assured a survey would be undertaken for assesement. o Can anyone provide an example of costs refitting decks to a similar wooden vessel? Self-fitted marine-ply + teak or alt. vs a yard fitting cost? Of course I'm assuming deck supports and knee's to be good. o Can anyone provide an indication of costs to strip, recaulk and prime/paint the exterior? Time is a factor here, is it even vaguely sensible to consider machine use (ie: sandblasting may be an damaging sacriledge) o Any rough cost descriptions for replacement of a 15 or 20hp engine? Assuming a yard to refit here, only estimate I have are engine unit in the region of 2k. Has anyone good experience in a complete engine rebuild for significantly less. o Rough cost descriptions for standing rigging replacement on a cutter for example, 30 or 35 foot? o Rough costs for sails for a 35 footer for example? (exampling cutter, gaff etc if vastly different) o Rough costs for having keel bolts pulled and replaced? Of course the inital assumption may be flawed to assume working on a £15K boat. It may be there are real life examples where that is simply a false economy. House restoration has taught me that removing layers reveals more problems but I have no experience in costs in the Classic wooden yacht world. Should a basket case be expected for that much or is it a reasonable figure? Perhaps someone can example worst case scenarios with real life pricing guestimates. Worst case scenario if keel wood/backbone turns out to be soft once stripped and serious work is required? (ie: hull split and keel and deadwood replacement) Worst case if a survey highlighted multiple ribs to be removed and replaced? Say 50%. Worst case costs if the floor or parts of the floor must be renewed to secure ribs to keel? Worst case costs of the ruddern or attachment points are rotten? These costs may be capable of being absorbed but equally may just make it pointless if the end value is less than the sum total of vessel + repair. All and any other experiences are valid, I am ignoring the cost of storage as land is available for long term working but long term drying raises questions. Is there an opinion on long term land based storage of a classic while work is carried out? Planks splittings from drying effect, warping etc once removed from constant immersion. I'm not sure if I have brain dumped too much so all and any feedback is gratefully recieved. Thanks. |
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