BoatBanter.com - View Single Post - Wooden Yacht restore and maintenance cost questions & advice please.

dadiOH

wrote:
Hi,

I have a series of questions that could possibly be served by a chat
with a decent Yacht surveyor but I would like some real life
feedback before starting to engage professionals. Consider me to be
researching.

To set the picture I am based in the UK & I have a hankering for a
wooden Classic, say a 30 to 35 foot yacht for my girlfriend & I to
enjoy for weekend cruising and channel hopping. Old fibre glass
yachts in the same price ranges that friends have or have had don't
really appeal. I am not averse to getting my hands dirty having
gutted & refitted my house myself and I have friends who are
carpenters and am reasonably capable with wood myself.

However, I am not experienced in steaming or fixing frames and more
intricate pieces of wood work I would expect to find during a
restore and have never worked on a wooden yacht.

So, if I were to purchase a wooden yacht of around 30 - 35 foot
range for an initial outlay of say £10 - 20k what kind of pitfalls
can I expect? Please be assured a survey would be undertaken for
assesement.

o Can anyone provide an example of costs refitting decks to a
similar wooden vessel? Self-fitted marine-ply + teak or alt. vs a
yard fitting cost? Of course I'm assuming deck supports and knee's
to be good.

If you so it, the cost of materials. If you have a yard do it, forget
about it.
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o Can anyone provide an indication of costs to strip, recaulk and
prime/paint the exterior? Time is a factor here, is it even vaguely
sensible to consider machine use (ie: sandblasting may be an
damaging sacriledge)

Same answer as above.

But why would you want to do that? You might have to reef out and
replace some of the stopping compound OVER the caulking but it is very
unlikely that the cotton caulking itself would need replacing.

I once bought a wooden gaff rigged ketch. It was 29 years old when I
bought it. I had it 20 years and it was NEVER taken down to bare wood
in the time I had it. No need...sand, fill dents, paint. The trick
is to sand and keep an even layer without building up.
__________________

o Any rough cost descriptions for replacement of a 15 or 20hp
engine? Assuming a yard to refit here, only estimate I have are
engine unit in the region of 2k. Has anyone good experience in a
complete engine rebuild for significantly less.

o Rough cost descriptions for standing rigging replacement on a
cutter for example, 30 or 35 foot?

What kind of wire? What kind of terminals. Turnbuckles? Stainless,
galvanized or bronze? Deadeyes? Ask a rigger.

I like deadeyes, BTW. Not hard to make and effective. Made mine from
teak and stropped them with 1/4" (maybe 5/16") bronze rod bent to form
two eyes. Of course, flat stock is more normal but mine worked well.
They could be stropped with dacron rope too.
______________________

o Rough costs for having keel bolts pulled and replaced?

No idea but I wouldn't think it would be all that much.
___________________

Of course the inital assumption may be flawed to assume working on a
£15K boat. It may be there are real life examples where that is
simply a false economy. House restoration has taught me that
removing layers reveals more problems but I have no experience in
costs in the Classic wooden yacht world.

Should a basket case be expected for that much or is it a
reasonable figure?

That's about $30,000 US, right? I don't know about boat values in the
UK and it has been years since I messed with boats in the US but I
would say "basket case". *Major* basket case.
______________________

Perhaps someone can example worst case scenarios with real life
pricing guestimates.

Worst case scenario if keel wood/backbone turns out to be soft once
stripped and serious work is required? (ie: hull split and keel and
deadwood replacement)

I wouldn't even consider buying such a boat
_______________________

Worst case if a survey highlighted multiple ribs to be removed and
replaced? Say 50%.

That would probably mean re-planking too. I wouldn't even consider
buying such a boat
______________________

Worst case costs if the floor or parts of the floor must be renewed
to secure ribs to keel?

Floors should be easily lifted
____________________

Worst case costs of the ruddern or attachment points are rotten?

Rudder itself shouldn't be a big deal
________________

These costs may be capable of being absorbed but equally may just
make it pointless if the end value is less than the sum total of
vessel + repair.

If you needed to do all the things you said I would guess that the
cost would considerably exceed that of just building a new boat from
scratch.
__________________

All and any other experiences are valid, I am ignoring the cost of
storage as land is available for long term working but long term
drying raises questions. Is there an opinion on long term land based
storage of a classic while work is carried out? Planks splittings
from drying effect, warping etc once removed from constant
immersion.

Well, the boat wasn't built in the water originally so there really
shouldn't be any problems. It *would* leak like a sieve once put back
in the water though. Hell, wood planked boats normally leak if they
haven't been sailed for a while. Or even if you change tacks after
having been on the opposite for a few days.
_______________

I'm not sure if I have brain dumped too much so all and any feedback
is gratefully recieved.

I can tell you a bit of my experience. The 29 year old, 26000#
displacement, 38' gaff ketch I bought in 1965 cost $12,500. My
inflation calculator tells me that would be about $84,000 today. For
that I got an old, "one off" boat with...

3/8" galvanized standing rigging
so-so running rigging, don't recall what
1 1/4" fir planking clench nailed to 1 1/2" oak frames on about
16" centers
a 50 HP Hercules diesel engine (the engine was used, had once been
in Herman Goering's boat)
2 - 100 gallon fuel tanks
solid Alaska spruce spars in good condition
decent sails (many).
most were dacron but a square course and mizzen staysail
were cotton as was the raffee
fir decks (leaky)
a basic - not fancy, no bells & whistles - interior
no electronics. none useable at least

My basic purpose was to use it as a live aboard. Which my wife and I
did for ten years. I have nothing against cruising - would have loved
to do so - but my wife wasn't keen on it and we were in the middle of
the Pacific more than 2000 miles from a land mass. There were time
constraints as well. Not to mention money.

The boat had been very solidly built. One of the best things on it
were the seams...really nice, tight, uniform ones. Very skillfully
done, best I ever saw.

One of the worst things - THE worst - was that it had been fastened
with iron. Iron is good for about 15 years. After that it starts to
go and when it does it starts to mess up the adjacent wood.
Particularly but not exclusively at the buttt blocks (more iron). I'd
haul it every 12-18 months and it was usual to replace some wood;
maybe 10-30 feet. The first I had replaced was a 3' piece on the
stern quarter...had the yard do it, cost me $300 (around $2000 now) so
I did it myself in the future. Painting as well. Even doing most of
the work myself it was not unusual to have a yard bill in the
$1500-3000 range ($8000-16000) now.

Over time I gutted and redid the interior. Not easy to do when living
aboard and I did not totally finish. I also fixed the leaky
decks...stripped off the rubber coating the previous owner had put on
the trunk cabin deck, put on 1/4" ply, fiberglassed over that. It
never leaked again. Did 1/2" teak on top of the fir decks with
Thiokol polysulfide in the seams. A mistake as it leaked some once
again after a few years; should have removed the fir then done ply
w/fiberglass then teak. Or thicker teak conventionally caulked.

I replaced all the standing rigging with SS, nico press eyes IIRC.
And deadeyes.

I replaced all the running rigging with 1/2" dacron. Made all blocks,
rope stropped teak. Lifting blocks on the masts were stropped with SS
wire. Made all the belaying pins too...Tobin bronze in teak handles.

(As an aside, I really liked the 1/2 dacron rope I used...it was a
four strand plait, stayed soft, was rough enough for a good grip and
was as easy to splice as 3 strand twisted rope. It was called
Intrepid braid...I'd love to have some more but have found nothing
similar. Anyone know of anything?)

BTW, I mentioned that the sails included a square course and a raffee.
That's because the boat had a yard. I never used the square course
but always set the rafee. It was handy when docking too...my slip
faced the prevailing wind so I could come sailing into the slip, brace
the yard perpendicular to the wind and the raffee acted as a built in
brake

There was also a triangular sail for the yard. Fastened to the yard
arms and tacked to an eyebolt in the deck. Lots of fun. With it, the
raffee, main, mizzen and mizen staysail I had better than 1000 square
feet of sail.

Over the years I put at least as much into the boat as I paid. When I
sold it after 20 years I got what I paid originally but - due to
inflation - that was equal to less than half the original price.

Boats ain't cheap

--

dadiOH
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