Hello. And welcome to the world of 'real' boats :-)

Myself, I have a 45' wooden trawler. It was built in 1961 and in
rather good condition, but was suffering from a few years of differed
maintenance.

First off, I would suggest you look at www.woodenboat.com. This site
has a forum with perhaps the most knowledgeable folks on Wooden boats
on the net.

Second, I would suggest you seek out knowledgeable folks local to you
with experience with wooden boats. I am located in the PNW of the
USA, and am fortunate to have access this increasingly shrinking
knowledge base. Will also add, there seems to be 3 classes of
'knowledge'.
1) Purists: It must be done this way, and only this way. These
folks are very bright, and also very critical in their approach. Most
boats were not built originally in the way they see as best practices.
These folks will guide you to a very very nice way, and also very very
expensive.

2) Get-er-done: These folks will take the approach that if I can
keep her floating for another year, that is good enough. Somewhat
correctly, they approach wooden boats as a boat with a defined life,
and the goal is to just keep her going until she dies. Plan on lots
of Gue in a Tube from these folks, salty advice, and little actual
experience.

3) Middle of the road folks. These are the ones you want to find.
They have skills, and want to see those skills passed on. They have
experience like #1, but also recognize that there are several
approaches to doing things, and the Gold Plate is not always the best
approach.

Find someone whose job is actually working on boats, as opposed to
inspecting them. They both have a purpose, but in this case you want
someone with the experience to be able to not only know when a corking
job is needed, and also able to do it with a learned hand. Sometimes
you also need to be careful also of those employed at Ship Yards.
Often they get pressured to just get it done and out quickly. And
over the years, they are forced to do too many short cuts. Not all
are this way, just something to watch out for. In my case, I have
found a local independent shipwright of the #3 type, and hire him
every time I haul the boat to help inspect, as well as teach me.



Third: One needs to understand why they are looking at a Wooden boat.
There are a few reasons, and typically one has some component of all
of them. One might be looking at a Wooden boat because the admire a
specific designer or craft, or this specific boat might have some
historical meaning and they feel compelled to preserve it. The other
extreme is someone has very very little cash, and just wants cheap.
Of course, in between are the ones (I like to put myself here) who
recognize the 'heart' of traditional wooden boats, but also the value
one can get in them in terms of boat for the buck.

This third aspect is rather important to be honest about. If you fall
into the true cheap group, you will be able to locate a boat that is
floating, in the 10m range, for a few thousand $. Might even be able
to locate a Dock Queen for free. But also, you will not want to put
much money into this (remembering that being cheap is the PRIME
motivate here). These folks also tend to be the 'Get-er-done' type of
folks as well. These folks seek out the max size for $, and do not
care too much about condition of the boat. As long as it floats, and
often boats in this group floating is about all they can do. Anything
beyond a day sail in fine weather would be risky...

If however you are the type who is looking to preserve a specific
design, well, these folks also will purchase a boat with little regard
to cost. They however will also be facing potentially HUGH repair
bills. Folks in this group are not concerned if 70% of the ribs need
replacing. A stern, or even the whole keel is not too much of an
issue. Taken to its extreme, they may end up replacing the entire
boat with new wood, a little at a time. Maybe ending up with a token
board of the 'original. These folks also tend to be served by the
Purests type of repair folks.

This last group of folks I admire a lot, they are doing things for
true soul reasons. They also will end up spending $100,000's in
refitting a boat, and it will truly be a work of art. The prior group
I do not particularly mind in a live and let live view, but it is
these folks who tend to give Wooden Boats a bad name. It can at times
be hard to locate dock space, insure a wood boat, or even get one
hauled out. If you recognize the truly cheap folks and their
approach, you can understand why. So, I guess in the end I am not too
happy with the truly cheap group.

Now, onto the middle group. Here we are looking to wood boats partly
due to their value (in terms of boat for $$), but also because we like
working with a living craft. A boat made of wood is different then FG
or steel, it floats different, it moves different, all is different.
It also does require more work to bring back to shape when they have
been neglected for a while, but assuming it was well built in the
beginning my experience has been that upkeep us not that much
different then say a FG boat. (But this is another topic....)

With this middle group, one tends to be more selective in locating a
boat. You need to look at original construction materials and
techniques: What are the fasteners (Bronze -- Iron, Screw -- Nail).
Planks and material used. Need to look at the condition: Fixing a
few frames is no issue, a lot is, pass. You need to really love a
boat to want to replace the keel or stem. Hull sound, or in need of
refastening? There are good values out there, but one needs to be
careful not to select a boat which will require too much structural
work.

When it comes to repairs: Fact is: If you are not prepared to do most
of the work yourself, it will never come out $ wise to own a wood
boat. Skilled labor is just too high, and you will need skills either
hired and/or learned. Here is where the % of Love for a boat comes
into play. Love tends to cause man to do foolish things with their
money :-)

Myself, I purchased a good condition 45' trawler for little money.
The hull was in great shape (I have had to replace two frames, and
re-corked perhaps 300' of the hull). It had a new motor, but also had
about 10 years of differed maintenance and the insides were removed.
When I am finished, I will have about 1/2 the cost into it (boat,
materials, contract labor only) vs. if I purchased a like wood boat
already repaired. And it will be about 20% of what a like 'kind' of
fiberglass boat would cost. So, there is real value here. During
this time I also have a very enjoyable hobby, and we all get out on
the water often.

Now, I would not have purchased this boat if it needed extensive
frame, or keel work. Nor if the motor needed to be replaced right
out. Perhpas not if the decks were all soft. There are just too many
options out there to take on that level of challenge. On the Worst
Case questions you ask: Good questions: My response would be, does
not really mater, cause if you were looking at Worst Case, you should
not purchase the boat. (unless you are in the type who is looking to
preserve a craft, then cost is no object).

In terms of investments: I have about $15,000 into my restoration to
date. About $5,000 is to the boat / structure its self, the rest is
electrical / plumbing / electronics / inside. She is usable, sea
worthy, and has almost all the amenities I am looking for. But there
is perhaps another $10,000 to go to get her to the point where I feel
she will be 'done'..

I have been working on her for 8 years now. (Did I mention time
needed for refits :-)

And one other thing I have learned: There is NEVER the case where one
can just replace a board and be done when it comes to rot. Your
examples of a leaking deck, if the deck is soft, plan on the deck and
also underling structure. In one worst case I found a small soft spot
along one header on the cabin. After digging it out, I ended up
replacing a 4x6 beam about 12' long. Not really a big issue, just
remember Rot is like icebergs: You only see the tip!

Ok, this is very very long. Hope it helps you some.





On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 09:19:22 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi,

I have a series of questions that could possibly be served by a chat
with a decent Yacht surveyor but I would like some real life feedback
before starting to engage professionals. Consider me to be
researching.

To set the picture I am based in the UK & I have a hankering for a
wooden Classic, say a 30 to 35 foot yacht for my girlfriend & I to
enjoy for weekend cruising and channel hopping. Old fibre glass yachts
in the same price ranges that friends have or have had don't really
appeal. I am not averse to getting my hands dirty having gutted &
refitted my house myself and I have friends who are carpenters and am
reasonably capable with wood myself.

However, I am not experienced in steaming or fixing frames and more
intricate pieces of wood work I would expect to find during a restore
and have never worked on a wooden yacht.

So, if I were to purchase a wooden yacht of around 30 - 35 foot range
for an initial outlay of say £10 - 20k what kind of pitfalls can I
expect? Please be assured a survey would be undertaken for assesement.

o Can anyone provide an example of costs refitting decks to a similar
wooden vessel? Self-fitted marine-ply + teak or alt. vs a yard fitting
cost? Of course I'm assuming deck supports and knee's to be good.

o Can anyone provide an indication of costs to strip, recaulk and
prime/paint the exterior? Time is a factor here, is it even vaguely
sensible to consider machine use (ie: sandblasting may be an damaging
sacriledge)

o Any rough cost descriptions for replacement of a 15 or 20hp engine?
Assuming a yard to refit here, only estimate I have are engine unit in
the region of 2k. Has anyone good experience in a complete engine
rebuild for significantly less.

o Rough cost descriptions for standing rigging replacement on a cutter
for example, 30 or 35 foot?

o Rough costs for sails for a 35 footer for example? (exampling
cutter, gaff etc if vastly different)

o Rough costs for having keel bolts pulled and replaced?

Of course the inital assumption may be flawed to assume working on a
£15K boat. It may be there are real life examples where that is simply
a false economy. House restoration has taught me that removing layers
reveals more problems but I have no experience in costs in the Classic
wooden yacht world.
Should a basket case be expected for that much or is it a reasonable
figure?

Perhaps someone can example worst case scenarios with real life
pricing guestimates.

Worst case scenario if keel wood/backbone turns out to be soft once
stripped and serious work is required? (ie: hull split and keel and
deadwood replacement)
Worst case if a survey highlighted multiple ribs to be removed and
replaced? Say 50%.
Worst case costs if the floor or parts of the floor must be renewed to
secure ribs to keel?
Worst case costs of the ruddern or attachment points are rotten?

These costs may be capable of being absorbed but equally may just make
it pointless if the end value is less than the sum total of vessel +
repair.

All and any other experiences are valid, I am ignoring the cost of
storage as land is available for long term working but long term
drying raises questions. Is there an opinion on long term land based
storage of a classic while work is carried out? Planks splittings from
drying effect, warping etc once removed from constant immersion.

I'm not sure if I have brain dumped too much so all and any feedback
is gratefully recieved.

Thanks.