4 strokes are great for a lot of reasons, but if fuel quality is
questionable, they can be more trouble than 2 strokes. I've had fuel
problems with a 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke, and an ob mechanic said water or trash
caused more problems w/4 strokes because of the smaller jets.

"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 13:13:14 -0800, ajw wrote:

I am a member of a Scuba diving club and we are investigating replacing
our outboard engines.

We currently have two Zodiac 5m inflatable boats (not RIBs) with 40HP 2
stroke Mariner outboards. These are reaching the end of their lives and
we are looking at replacing them.

With the new legislation coming in we are looking at 2 stroke vs 4
stroke. I am aware that few people use 4 strokes on inflatables and
fewer would manhandle them down beaches removing and replacing them
daily as we do.

4 strokes are more efficient, reliable, quieter, and cleaner than 2
strokes, but they are heavier. However, a newer 4 stroke may be lighter
than an older 2 stroke. So look at specs when you shop.

I believe there are newer 2 strokes that meet environmental
regs -- I don't know about in your size/power range though.

Comparing specs is one thing, but consider what's available to you
locally, parts and service wise. Everything's a compromise.

Does anyone have any experience of using 4 strokes on inflatable boats
in this way? Are there any implcations to the angle you can carry/store
them?

The small Hondas I've used can be laid on their side indefinitely. I
don't know about larger ones.

Matt O.

"Garland Gray II" wrote in
:

4 strokes are great for a lot of reasons, but if fuel quality is
questionable, they can be more trouble than 2 strokes. I've had fuel
problems with a 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke, and an ob mechanic said water or
trash caused more problems w/4 strokes because of the smaller jets.



Also, if you look back at the "good ol' days", remember when
"winterizing" the old 2-stroker meant hauling it up the dock and putting
it in the garage until spring? When you took it out in spring, just as
greasy as you put it away, it wasn't all rusted up coated with oil like
it always was. You poured PREMIX gas into it and drove away.

We have a Nissan 8hp 4-stroker for a Foldabote 12 on Lionheart. The carb
has been apart a few times, now, because it had raw gas in it that
evaporated into solid shellac, plugging the jets so it wouldn't start.
This wasn't an issue with the old PREMIX 2-stroker because the oil in the
gas DIDN'T evaporate and kept the stuff left in the carbs in LIQUID form
the new gas would simply remix with and away we went. My little Yamaha 3
with the gas tank on top is like that, too. It was stored for years and
the premix still kept it from solidifying to shellac.

Changing the oil on a marina dock or sailboat STILL sucks, too....

As to the 100:1 oilers...no thanks. 50:1 is too thin to oil crankcase
bearings, no matter now much greenies and the EPA hype it. When I sold
my 1997 Mercury Sport Jet 175hp-powered Sea Rayder, all 6 cylinders were
within 5 pounds of their original compression and ran great on 40:1
PREMIX, the troublesome Mercury plastic oil injection pump and system
having been removed as soon as I found out about the 2nd recall blowing
powerheads with NO LUBRICATION. That boat's still running and the engine
had well over 1000 hours on it....on PREMIX.

Larry
--
According to EPA, all lakes that have had 2-stroke engines running in
them for the last 100 years must be 6" deep in motor oil. See it?
Oil floats, ya know!

As to the 100:1 oilers...no thanks. 50:1 is too thin to oil crankcase
bearings, no matter now much greenies and the EPA hype it. When I sold
my 1997 Mercury Sport Jet 175hp-powered Sea Rayder, all 6 cylinders were
within 5 pounds of their original compression and ran great on 40:1
PREMIX, the troublesome Mercury plastic oil injection pump and system
having been removed as soon as I found out about the 2nd recall blowing
powerheads with NO LUBRICATION. That boat's still running and the engine
had well over 1000 hours on it....on PREMIX.



I haven't seen any evidence to support this. Only outboards I've messed
with have been either 50:1 or 100:1, one of the latter is still going
strong at over 15 years old, and my V115 uses 50:1 and it still runs
great despite being almost 40 years old. Just how long do these things
have to last? Why use more oil than needed? That stuff is $$$.

James Sweet wrote in news:41bah.6528$IW2.934
@trndny03:

Why use more oil than needed?

My interest was more in protecting the engine from oil injection FAILURES
Mercury has had than in longevity. 40:1 is only 1 quart to 10 gallons, 40
gallons per gallon of oil. If you kept away from the OEM-branded oils at
awful prices and stuck to the major oil company brands, who make the OEM
oils anyways, and bought by the case...ESPECIALLY on any discounted
sales...it wasn't bad on price. I burned a couple of quarts on a weekend
buzzing around and towing the kids....

Your experience with 15 year old 2-strokers, I'm afraid, has come to an
end. They invented Ficht and Optimax and pretty much put a stop to long-
running 2-stroke motors...(c;

Oil injection can't fail if it's dumped in the gas tank to begin with....

Larry
--
Guess what I want to do with the Little Drummer Boy's drum
by Christmas Eve....rrrrump..pa-pum...pum...up his bum....

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:29:23 -0500, Larry wrote:

"Garland Gray II" wrote in
:

4 strokes are great for a lot of reasons, but if fuel quality is
questionable, they can be more trouble than 2 strokes. I've had fuel
problems with a 9.9 Yamaha 4 stroke, and an ob mechanic said water or
trash caused more problems w/4 strokes because of the smaller jets.



Also, if you look back at the "good ol' days", remember when
"winterizing" the old 2-stroker meant hauling it up the dock and putting
it in the garage until spring? When you took it out in spring, just as
greasy as you put it away, it wasn't all rusted up coated with oil like
it always was. You poured PREMIX gas into it and drove away.

We have a Nissan 8hp 4-stroker for a Foldabote 12 on Lionheart. The carb
has been apart a few times, now, because it had raw gas in it that
evaporated into solid shellac, plugging the jets so it wouldn't start.
This wasn't an issue with the old PREMIX 2-stroker because the oil in the
gas DIDN'T evaporate and kept the stuff left in the carbs in LIQUID form
the new gas would simply remix with and away we went. My little Yamaha 3
with the gas tank on top is like that, too. It was stored for years and
the premix still kept it from solidifying to shellac.

Changing the oil on a marina dock or sailboat STILL sucks, too....

As to the 100:1 oilers...no thanks. 50:1 is too thin to oil crankcase
bearings, no matter now much greenies and the EPA hype it. When I sold
my 1997 Mercury Sport Jet 175hp-powered Sea Rayder, all 6 cylinders were
within 5 pounds of their original compression and ran great on 40:1
PREMIX, the troublesome Mercury plastic oil injection pump and system
having been removed as soon as I found out about the 2nd recall blowing
powerheads with NO LUBRICATION. That boat's still running and the engine
had well over 1000 hours on it....on PREMIX.

Larry




In the GOOD OLD DAYS gas was not 10 percent alchol and contained lead
in major quanities. Oh by the way the EPA problem with 2 strokes is
not so much the oil in the water but in the air.

wrote in news:fufim2het1capo2e7k4p6kitgmq7vhtc3b@
4ax.com:

Oh by the way the EPA problem with 2 strokes is
not so much the oil in the water but in the air.

I wonder how that works?? Oil doesn't evaporate so it's not vapor
pollution. I suppose the tiny bit of smoke trailing an outboard motor is
pollution, probably .00000001% of what pours out of a single smoke stack
at your electric plant, 24/7/365.

Dead out on the river, 20 miles from the trailer, I want the simplest 2-
stroke outboard with the fewest failing parts that a guy standing in the
mud behind it along the banks can figure out what's wrong and patch it up
to get home. No valves, no belts, minimal pumps, simple carburetion,
hand startable (if necessary)....the motor with the fewest failure modes
almost anyone with any sense can get running. A 2-stroke needs:
A - Fuel
B - Spark
C - Cooling
D - Prop

Everything else is fluff.

Every one of them needs a primer bulb, a fantastic troubleshooting tool
for the fuel system and emergency fuel pump if the diaphram fails in
their pulse pump. It amazes me the number of people who just sit there
staring into it and don't THINK about what that little bulb can tell them
if they'd just pump it and think about what is happening. I've helped
lots of stranded boaters with it. "Pump the bulb for me.", I ask. "It
squeezes but doesn't come back out.", he says. "Turn on the fuel shutoff
valve.", I say...and away they go. "It pumps real easy.", he says.
"Here, let me loan you some gas.", I respond. "It pumps and I see gas in
the water behind the motor.", he says. "Your fuel pump diaphram has a
hole in it pumping gas into one cylinder, flooding it....or the carb
float is stuck. Pull the cover and we'll bypass the pump. You can
squeeze the bulb while running it home." So easy....even on a carb'd 4-
stroker.

Impossible to fix on fuel injection and other high tech nonsense....

Larry
--
Guess what I want to do with the Little Drummer Boy's drum
by Christmas Eve....rrrrump..pa-pum...pum...up his bum....

Larry,
I guess that you have not noticed that:
A-Logic has little to do with environmental regulations.
B-Much of the world is trying anything they can to shut down the best
economy in the history of the world.

The old 2 strokes were dirty engines. (I did some of the testing.) Their
hydrocarbon emissions were outrageous. Anything that gets lubricated
like an old 2-stroke won't wear out any time soon, but I have been on a
could of mountain lakes that had an oil slick the likes of a tanker
spill.
For calibration, when I was working in one of those labs, the crew that
was doing the evaporative emissions testing put the office Christmas
tree into one of the evap sheds - It Didn't Pass -

Many of the world's vocal liberals are very down on the good old USofA
because we have something like 10% of the population and use 30% of the
fossil fuel. They don't happen to notice that this produces 40+% of the
worlds productivity and 15% of the worlds pollution*. (*Not including
CO2) (The quoted statistics are close but not exact.)

China has not been asked to reduce anything and they are still running
wood fired steam locomotives and have the fastest declining air quality
in the world. It is so bad that some coaches are expecting to have to
shut some of the events at the next Olympics down because of the
pollution.

Why do you think Motorcycles are now required to have catalytic
converters?

Why do liberals think that a Hybrid vehicle is a better answer than a
diesel?

Why do they make noise about dependence on foreign oil and not let
anybody go get what we have. (Canada has wells in most of the great
lakes - we aren't allowed to, Cuba will soon be using Chinese
investment to drill under the Florida straight - we can't do that either.)

Matt Colie - environmentally conscious but educated and realistic


Larry wrote:
wrote in news:fufim2het1capo2e7k4p6kitgmq7vhtc3b@
4ax.com:


Oh by the way the EPA problem with 2 strokes is
not so much the oil in the water but in the air.


I wonder how that works?? Oil doesn't evaporate so it's not vapor
pollution. I suppose the tiny bit of smoke trailing an outboard motor is
pollution, probably .00000001% of what pours out of a single smoke stack
at your electric plant, 24/7/365.

Dead out on the river, 20 miles from the trailer, I want the simplest 2-
stroke outboard with the fewest failing parts that a guy standing in the
mud behind it along the banks can figure out what's wrong and patch it up
to get home. No valves, no belts, minimal pumps, simple carburetion,
hand startable (if necessary)....the motor with the fewest failure modes
almost anyone with any sense can get running. A 2-stroke needs:
A - Fuel
B - Spark
C - Cooling
D - Prop

Everything else is fluff.

Every one of them needs a primer bulb, a fantastic troubleshooting tool
for the fuel system and emergency fuel pump if the diaphram fails in
their pulse pump. It amazes me the number of people who just sit there
staring into it and don't THINK about what that little bulb can tell them
if they'd just pump it and think about what is happening. I've helped
lots of stranded boaters with it. "Pump the bulb for me.", I ask. "It
squeezes but doesn't come back out.", he says. "Turn on the fuel shutoff
valve.", I say...and away they go. "It pumps real easy.", he says.
"Here, let me loan you some gas.", I respond. "It pumps and I see gas in
the water behind the motor.", he says. "Your fuel pump diaphram has a
hole in it pumping gas into one cylinder, flooding it....or the carb
float is stuck. Pull the cover and we'll bypass the pump. You can
squeeze the bulb while running it home." So easy....even on a carb'd 4-
stroker.

Impossible to fix on fuel injection and other high tech nonsense....

Larry

"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Why do they make noise about dependence on foreign oil and not let anybody
go get what we have. (Canada has wells in most of the great lakes - we
aren't allowed to, Cuba will soon be using Chinese investment to drill
under the Florida straight - we can't do that either.)

Matt Colie - environmentally conscious but educated and realistic



I'm all for energy-independence, but I cannot believe that oil wells on our
Great Lakes would be a good idea. Oil spills from rigs on the oceans are bad
enough -- but similar spills on the Lakes would be disasterous.

"KLC Lewis" wrote in
:

I'm all for energy-independence, but I cannot believe that oil wells
on our Great Lakes would be a good idea. Oil spills from rigs on the
oceans are bad enough -- but similar spills on the Lakes would be
disasterous.



Some of the finest fishing on the planet is right under those oil rigs in
the Gulf of Mexico....a whole new ecosystem that's just thriving....
all the way to the bottom!

http://www.thejump.net/fishingarticl...gged-reefs.htm
http://www.marshmission.com/coastal_...t/volume12.htm
http://www.gomr.mms.gov/homepg/regul...viron/rigs-to-
reefs/information.html
.....to name a few.


Larry
--
Guess what I want to do with the Little Drummer Boy's drum
by Christmas Eve....rrrrump..pa-pum...pum...up his bum....

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:47:57 -0600, in message

"KLC Lewis" wrote:


"Matt Colie" wrote in message
...
Why do they make noise about dependence on foreign oil and not let anybody
go get what we have. (Canada has wells in most of the great lakes - we
aren't allowed to, Cuba will soon be using Chinese investment to drill
under the Florida straight - we can't do that either.)

Matt Colie - environmentally conscious but educated and realistic



I'm all for energy-independence, but I cannot believe that oil wells on our
Great Lakes would be a good idea. Oil spills from rigs on the oceans are bad
enough -- but similar spills on the Lakes would be disasterous.

Whose Great Lakes? Keep in mind that we share them with the US. Or are
you posting from the US and speaking only of Lake Michigan?

There's already plenty of wellheads under Lake Erie where the shallow
depths make drilling quite easy and Lake Erie is in way better shape
than it was 40 years ago.

Ryk