Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

I like http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_nav.htm

It has pictures and may be more authoritative.

Roger

http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
"max camirand" wrote in message
ups.com...
Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:

Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.

I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.

Wayne.B wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:


Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.


I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.


Another problem with the Red over Green that Max suggested is that there has to
be a vertical separation of not less than 1 metre between the two.

See page 4 of:

http://www.uscgboating.org/recalls/p....pdf#navlights


Brian C

Both Wayne and Brian brought up some good points. The red over green
masthead with lower sidelights is simply the ideal combination from the
point of view of commercial shipping, which is the only point of view I
know, having never sailed offshore in anything but freighters. As these
two gentlemen pointed out, the idea may have practical problems that I
don't know about.

If you were forced to choose between deck level lights alone or a
tricolour masthead, then go for the tricolour masthead, because it's
the most visible of the two. If you can get around the practical
problems, I maintain that my original suggestion is safest, because
more lights are better, and more distinctive lights are better.

LED lights may deal with the problem of extra power drain. As far as I
know, with LEDs, you can put up a whole christmas tree for the same
power draw as a few incadescent bulbs. For the 1m seperation problem, I
guess that depends on your boat. They don't necessarily need to project
1m above your mast; you can have the red all-round at the very top, and
mount the green on the mast proper, 1m below. The rules allow for that
light to be "split" into two seperate lights on either side of the
mast, should you wish, as long as they look like a single light at a
distance of 1 mile. That way, they won't both be obscured by the sails,
won't foul the jib and you wouldn't need a 1m light(ning) rod
projecting from the top of your mast as in Brian's document.

Criticism, praise and refutals welcome.

-max

Wayne.B wrote:
On 20 Oct 2006 16:18:09 -0700, "max camirand"
wrote:

Do yourself a big favor and DO NOT opt for the tricolour mastead light
allowed under colregs Rule 25b, especially if you plan to go offshore.
The problem is with visibility to other ships. Sure, they're easier to
see because they're high up, but on a dark night, where a watchkeeper
on a cargo ship may be judging your distance by the light's height on
the horizon, he may think that you're far away while you're almost up
against him.

I disagree based on my own experiences sailing at night in the
proximity of commercial shipping.

Before we got the masthead tricolor commercial ships acted as though
we were totally invisible, and probably we were. After getting the
tricolor it became clear that we were not only being seen, but the big
guys were actually making course changes to avoid us.

By all means get the tricolor. Your first goal is to be seen by
others, then they can figure out the distance.

White light must not be seeing from up ahead, approaching vessels.
only from vessels on both sides and behind. All around white light
only when anchored. fair winds!
wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

Well Said Chris. RULE 25, Rules.
max camirand wrote:
Chris,

I didn't really understand what lights you were describing, so I'm
going to include the relevant rules. When you're sailing, you fall
under rule 25 abc unless you're under 7 meters long (approx 22 feet).
When you're motoring, you're under Rule 23. I can't recall if you told
us how long your boat is. That would help refine the requirements.

Rule 25

Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars

(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) sidelights;

(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern
carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast,
where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line,
the upper being red and the lower Green, but these lights shall not be
exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by
paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[snip]

=====


Rule 23

power driven Vessels Underway

(a) A power driven vessel underway shall exhibit:

(i) a masthead light forward;

(ii) a second masthead light abaft of and higher than the forward one;

except that a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be
obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;

(iii) sidelights: and

(iv) a sternlight.

(b) An air-cushion vessel when operating in non-displacement mode
shall, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this
Rule, exhibit an all-round flashing yellow light.

(c)

(i) A power driven vessel of less than 12 meters in length may in lieu
of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an
all-round white light and sidelights.

(ii) a power driven vessel of less than 7 meters in length whose
maximum speed does not exceed 7 knots may in lieu of the lights
prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule exhibit an all-round white
light and shall, if practicable, also exhibit sidelights.

(iii) the masthead light or all-round white light on a power driven
vessel of less than 12 meters in length may be displaced from the fore
and aft centerline of the vessel if centerline fitting is not
practicable, provided the sidelights are combined in one lantern which
shall be carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel or
located as nearly as practicable in the same fore and aft line as the
masthead light or all-round white light.



wrote:
Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?


Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew

gooVal wrote:

White light must not be seeing from up ahead, approaching vessels.
only from vessels on both sides and behind. All around white light
only when anchored. fair winds!

I suggest you read the regs again, specifically power driven vessel under 12m....

FWIW, does not a "steaming" light display ahead ?

Brian C

wrote:

Ooops, November 3rd must be smartassday.

I understand that you can't show the all around white light
directly above the red green, but I thought that one can
combine steaming and rear (~12m), so what is wrong
with the combinations above?



Not quite.

Read and understand my previous post.


Lew