This inquiry has been cross-posted to rec.boats.cruising;
rec.boats.building; and rec.boats.electronics since it seems to cover
all three areas and I am hoping to tap the widest range of experts.
If you have responded to one thread, no need to respond in the other
news groups (though, of course, you are welcome to do so).

I recently read an article in Practical Sailor about navigation
lights. It reminded me about the red over green masthead light that
is optional for sailboats. I have never seen this option used but
have wondered if it actually might be a good idea to explore.

When I am sailing or motoring at night, I enjoy trying to identify the
types of vessels engaged in various activities from the navigation
lights that are displayed. Currently I have been boating in the
eastern North Carolina area. The green over white lights of the
fishing trawlers are pretty common and also quite useful to warn you
to stay clear of their operations.

As you know, for sailboats under sails alone the regulations call for
(with regard to my 43 foot cutter/ketch) a combination port/starboard
light at the bow (or separate sidelights) and a stern light or a
tri-colored light at the peak of the mast. In other words the
configuration for power boats but without the white masthead light
showing forward. From my experience the lack of a masthead light is a
distinction that is rather subtle and could be overlooked in traffic
or poor visibility. This has led me to reconsider the value of the
red over green mast light that is an option for sailboats under sail
alone. It is so distinct that even the most casual observer would
immediately recognize that the vessel was a sailboat.

First questions are whether you have ever seen the optional red over
green lights used? Was it as distinctive as I assume that it would
be? What size vessel did you see it on? What is your opinion about
the usefulness of this option?

The second set of questions have more to do with the electronics and
building news groups. I seem to remember reading somewhere that
lights in a vertical stack should (or have to) be separated by one
meter. Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles? The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader. The lanterns could be powered by their
own batteries or I could run wires down to an outlet on the deck.
What do you think of this possible arrangement? It would not be at
the peak of the mast and would be blocked from vision from one side of
the boat at times by the mast. But, it would have the advantage of
being removable and repairable easily. Such an arrangement could also
be used for displaying red over red or red/white/red when those
signals might be necessary.

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast. The added advantage of this arrangement is that it
would not increase the overall height of my rig for purposes of
vertical clearance. But even with some kind of extension, how do I
keep the pole or extension itself from blocking the light from certain
angles? Well, experts, what do you think of all this? Of course,
would be a lot of work to design and install such an arrangement. But
if it kept me from getting run down just once, it would be well worth
the effort. Or, on the other hand, have I just lost my mind? :-)

Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

Most of your questions are answered in the Nav Rules. I have a PDF version,
which I can't find online just now, but the rules are online in HTML format
on the Coast Guard site. Go to www.uscg.org, and click on Favorites. (Having
a hard copy is a good idea, and I think often a legal requirement.)

A short version, if I read them correctly, is that the red over green does
not replace but supplements the other, usual sailing lights, which then
cannot be a masthead tricolor. It doesn't deal specifically with
multi-masted boats that I can see. Visibility of sidelights has to be 1 mile
for boats under 12 metres and 2 miles if over. The details of luminosity
are given in an Annex.

Vertical separation is mandated at 1 metre for boats under 20 metres, and 2
metres if over.

Non-electric lights should have the same luminosity as electric lights "so
far as practicable."

How are lights not at the mast head made to shine "all around" - there must
be two lights, for and aft?

Charles

====

Charles T. Low
- remove "UN"
www.boatdocking.com
www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26 - my boat

====

"Lee Huddleston" wrote in message
...
... Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles? The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader...signals might be necessary.

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast...Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

Lee Huddleston wrote:
snip

As you know, for sailboats under sails alone the regulations call for
(with regard to my 43 foot cutter/ketch) a combination port/starboard
light at the bow (or separate sidelights) and a stern light or a
tri-colored light at the peak of the mast. In other words the
configuration for power boats but without the white masthead light
showing forward. From my experience the lack of a masthead light is a
distinction that is rather subtle and could be overlooked in traffic
or poor visibility.

If I'm reading this right you are suggesting the use of the white
masthead, while undersail alone, when in traffic or poor visibility?

If so, ....BIG NO-NO.

This has led me to reconsider the value of the
red over green mast light that is an option for sailboats under sail
alone. It is so distinct that even the most casual observer would
immediately recognize that the vessel was a sailboat.

First questions are whether you have ever seen the optional red over
green lights used? Was it as distinctive as I assume that it would
be? What size vessel did you see it on? What is your opinion about
the usefulness of this option?

Have seen this rarely, and usually on a much larger sailboat (small
"Tallship". Remember it being quite distinctive, but due to rarity of
sightings, it took a few seconds to remember. (will get to usefulness
for your case later)

The second set of questions have more to do with the electronics and
building news groups. I seem to remember reading somewhere that
lights in a vertical stack should (or have to) be separated by one
meter. Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles?

To be certain, check Annex I, in the rules, but I think you'll find the
minimum to be 1M apart.

The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader. The lanterns could be powered by their
own batteries or I could run wires down to an outlet on the deck.
What do you think of this possible arrangement? It would not be at
the peak of the mast and would be blocked from vision from one side of
the boat at times by the mast. But, it would have the advantage of
being removable and repairable easily. Such an arrangement could also
be used for displaying red over red or red/white/red when those
signals might be necessary.

G pushing it a bit. For the red over green, they are to be "at or
near" the top of the mast. However, breakdown light can be where "best
seen".

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast. The added advantage of this arrangement is that it
would not increase the overall height of my rig for purposes of
vertical clearance. But even with some kind of extension, how do I
keep the pole or extension itself from blocking the light from certain
angles? Well, experts, what do you think of all this? Of course,
would be a lot of work to design and install such an arrangement. But
if it kept me from getting run down just once, it would be well worth
the effort. Or, on the other hand, have I just lost my mind? :-)

OK, Here's where I get confused. If you all ready have the tri-color,
why would you also want the "red over green"? I ask, because you can
only display one or the other, not both (at the same time), and that
tri-color does an excellent job .... though, admittedly, the red over
green, coupled with normal sidelights, might be better in close quarters.

You raise some good questions, the answers to which in some cases, may
come down to your own preferences and how many options you want to have
available.

otn

Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

First questions are whether you have ever seen the optional red over
green lights used?

Not ever -- that I recognized. I'd be confused if I saw it, and I try to
keep up on these things.

Jeff,
You might be confused at first, but at least it would get your
attention. You might not remember from your reading of the regs what
the lights meant, but you would know that it was something different.
And my bet would be that you would stay clear of it until you figured
out what the vessel was.

In my opinion, a saiboat under power is a powerboat and should be so
marked.
No question about it. But, by the same token, a sailboat under sails
alone is not a powerboat and it is actually illegal to use the
powerboat lights when under sails alone. If I were to be under sails
and use the powerboat lights and then had trouble maneuvering, I could
be held liable.

The steaming light up the mast is pretty distinctive and usual, so other
boats can tell you're slow.

Maybe on a lake where most of the powerboats just use an all-round
white light rather than separate masthead and stern lights. But along
the coast where there are larger powerboats, it is normal to see the
masthead/stern lights combination. So, seeing a steaming light up
high could just mean a large powerboat that could be very fast.

Being able to determine the boat's heading by the lights is VERY useful,
too. Red over Green wouldn't afford that visual clue.

I must not have been clear in my earlier post. The red over green
goes at the peak of the mast and is in addition to the red and green
sidelights (or combination light at the bow). You would get the
heading information from the lower lights and the type of vessel from
the upper lights.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

Most of your questions are answered in the Nav Rules. I have a PDF version,
which I can't find online just now, but the rules are online in HTML format
on the Coast Guard site. Go to www.uscg.org, and click on Favorites. (Having
a hard copy is a good idea, and I think often a legal requirement.)

You are right; on Truelove I am required to have a hard copy aboard.
I have several and have read them so many times I have about memorized
them, including the inland and western rivers rules. But thanks for
the link and the offer.

A short version, if I read them correctly, is that the red over green does
not replace but supplements the other, usual sailing lights, which then
cannot be a masthead tricolor.

You are right again. The red over green supplements the regular red
and green sidelights (or combination light at the bow). And, as you
say, one has to choose to use the tricolor light OR the red over
green, but not both at the same time.

It doesn't deal specifically with multi-masted boats that I can see.

That is true and another poster in rec.boats.building was of the
opinion that by saying at the peak of the mast it meant the highest
point on the boat. That poster thought that the wording eliminated
the option to put the lights on the mizzen. I am going to have to
research this some more.

Vertical separation is mandated at 1 metre for boats under 20 metres, and 2
metres if over.

In my original post I suggested that since the lights were optional I
might be able to get away with less separation. But a poster pointed
out and I now believe he is right, if one is going to have any lights
they need to be in compliance. Otherwise it would be better not to
have the lights.

How are lights not at the mast head made to shine "all around" - there must
be two lights, for and aft?

That is the technical problem. If it were just one light there would
be no problem. But when the red and green have to be separated by one
meter, it gets tricky to design so that the lights are not blocked by
the mast or some kind of extension. Another poster suggested just
what you have, two lights on either side (or fore and aft) of the
mast. I wonder if the lights would appear to merge into one from a
distance.

Thanks for your post, Charles.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

If I'm reading this right you are suggesting the use of the white
masthead, while undersail alone, when in traffic or poor visibility?

If so, ....BIG NO-NO.

I must not have written my message very clearly. You are right. I
would never consider running with just the white masthead light. What
I was trying to say was that the difference between a powerboat and a
sailboat under sails alone is that the sailboat turns the white
masthead light OFF.

Have seen this rarely, and usually on a much larger sailboat (small
"Tallship". Remember it being quite distinctive, but due to rarity of
sightings, it took a few seconds to remember. (will get to usefulness
for your case later)

From what others have posted or e-mailed to me directly, the option is
pretty rare. But, if you were to see it again, because it is unusual
it probably would grab your attention. That is what I am trying to
achieve. Even if the observer didn't know what the lights meant, at
least he/she would recognize that something different was out there
and probably stay clear. And, of course, it is the big boys out there
that can do me the most harm. Professional skippers of large
commercial boats are more likely to know what the lights mean.

When you saw the lights in use where you able to see how the lights
were installed? The biggest problem seems to be how to keep them from
being blocked by the mast. It has been suggested that two lights for
each color - one on each side of the mast - be used.

To be certain, check Annex I, in the rules, but I think you'll find the
minimum to be 1M apart.

You are correct. For Truelove at 13 meters the separation is 1 meter.

G pushing it a bit. For the red over green, they are to be "at or
near" the top of the mast. However, breakdown light can be where "best
seen".

That is a very good point. So if I wanted to build a hoistable set of
lights for vessel not under command etc. I could do that, but for red
over green I would need a permanent set up, probably on the peak of
the

OK, Here's where I get confused. If you all ready have the tri-color,
why would you also want the "red over green"? I ask, because you can
only display one or the other, not both (at the same time), and that
tri-color does an excellent job .... though, admittedly, the red over
green, coupled with normal sidelights, might be better in close quarters.

If a skipper of another boat sees the red of my tricolor, for example,
he might conclude that he is seeing the starboard side of some vessel.
If he assumed that all other lights were working properly, he might
conclude that he was looking at a sailboat under sails. But a single
red light could be any number of other vessels with one or more lights
not properly functioning. If, on the other hand, he sees a red light
over a green light, there is only one type of vessel it could be - a
sailboat under sails. Also my thought is that two lights of two
different colors would be that much more visible.

You raise some good questions, the answers to which in some cases, may
come down to your own preferences and how many options you want to have
available.

Thanks for your post.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
.net...


Lee Huddleston wrote:
snip
From what others have posted or e-mailed to me directly, the option is
pretty rare. But, if you were to see it again, because it is unusual
it probably would grab your attention. That is what I am trying to
achieve. Even if the observer didn't know what the lights meant, at
least he/she would recognize that something different was out there
and probably stay clear. And, of course, it is the big boys out there
that can do me the most harm. Professional skippers of large
commercial boats are more likely to know what the lights mean.

BG Most likely, they'll have the same reaction I remember having
....HUH? .... ohhhhhh ......Dang, don't see THAT too often.

When you saw the lights in use where you able to see how the lights
were installed? The biggest problem seems to be how to keep them from
being blocked by the mast. It has been suggested that two lights for
each color - one on each side of the mast - be used.

Was at night, not a good view. Would not recommend two sets of lights
....that could end up being confusing. Stick with the one set and try to
get the elevated to whatever degree possible and also away from the mast
to whatever degree possible. You will have some blind spots, but I would
try to make them astern, to whatever degree you could.



snip

If a skipper of another boat sees the red of my tricolor, for example,
he might conclude that he is seeing the starboard side of some vessel.

you mean the other stbd.

If he assumed that all other lights were working properly, he might
conclude that he was looking at a sailboat under sails. But a single
red light could be any number of other vessels with one or more lights
not properly functioning. If, on the other hand, he sees a red light
over a green light, there is only one type of vessel it could be - a
sailboat under sails. Also my thought is that two lights of two
different colors would be that much more visible.

All in all, correct, but the majority, will not be considering possible
extinguished lights, and usually in this case, if others are available,
it will be obvious that something is out of wack, but even so, you are
correct and again it's a question of how far you wish to go..... more
can definitely be better, but still keep a big flashlight handy to shine
on your sails (personal opinion ... it's about the best attention getter)

otn


I have seen these optional lights several times here in UK waters, but
always on big sail-training-type boats. They are certainly very distinctive
and seem to work well, otherwise you are basing decisions on the *absence*
of a white light. The 80' ketch I sail on has these lights on its main mast,
they are on a pair of struts that extend maybe 1 foot forward of the mast
which must give them coverage little better than the steaming light (the
'all round reds' for NUC are on the same struts). The boat is MCA inspected
annually, but I guess that since they are optional they are legal as long as
they are off! Some skippers use them, some don't.

Steve

"For example" wrote in message
.. .

The 80' ketch I sail on has these lights on its main mast,
they are on a pair of struts that extend maybe 1 foot forward of the mast
which must give them coverage little better than the steaming light (the
'all round reds' for NUC are on the same struts).

You can see a picture which just about shows them if you go to
http://www.oytnw.org.uk and follow the link 'The Boat'.

Steve

On ships with "all around" lights mounted close on the mast, it is common to
have two lights mounted on each side of the mast. Two lights mounted 12"
apart should not be confusing, and while a sail may block a light, it would
also be illuminated by it.

Pete Albright
Tampa, FL

"Lee Huddleston" wrote in message
...

SNIP

The second set of questions have more to do with the electronics and
building news groups. I seem to remember reading somewhere that
lights in a vertical stack should (or have to) be separated by one
meter. Since the red over green lights would be entirely optional,
you probably could get away with less separation but there probably is
a minimum separation to keep the lights from appearing to merge when
sighted at a distance. Anybody have any opinion on what the minimum
distance would have to be so that the lights would appear as separate
lights at say 2 nautical miles? The distance apart also complicates
the installation. One idea I had was to hoist two lanterns up to a
block on an upper spreader. The lanterns could be powered by their
own batteries or I could run wires down to an outlet on the deck.
What do you think of this possible arrangement? It would not be at
the peak of the mast and would be blocked from vision from one side of
the boat at times by the mast. But, it would have the advantage of
being removable and repairable easily. Such an arrangement could also
be used for displaying red over red or red/white/red when those
signals might be necessary.

Since I already have a tri-color light at the peak of my mainmast, any
permanent extension above the peak would interfere with the visibility
of the tri-color (and its anchor light) when I chose to use it. Since
I have a mizzen mast, I have considered building an extension for the
peak of that mast. The added advantage of this arrangement is that it
would not increase the overall height of my rig for purposes of
vertical clearance. But even with some kind of extension, how do I
keep the pole or extension itself from blocking the light from certain
angles? Well, experts, what do you think of all this? Of course,
would be a lot of work to design and install such an arrangement. But
if it kept me from getting run down just once, it would be well worth
the effort. Or, on the other hand, have I just lost my mind? :-)

Thanks in advance for your advice and help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove
Bruce Roberts Mauritius 43
43 foot seel hulled, center cockpit, raised poop, cutter/ketch

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:43:40 +0100, "For example"
wrote:

"For example" wrote in message
. ..

The 80' ketch I sail on has these lights on its main mast,
they are on a pair of struts that extend maybe 1 foot forward of the mast
which must give them coverage little better than the steaming light (the
'all round reds' for NUC are on the same struts).

You can see a picture which just about shows them if you go to
http://www.oytnw.org.uk and follow the link 'The Boat'.

Steve


Steve,

Thank you for the information and the link. The OYTNW looks like an
interesting organization. As for the lights, it is interesting that
they did not feel compelled to place them any higher or worry about
them being blocked to the stern.

Thanks again for your help.

Lee Huddleston
s/v Truelove