"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message ...
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly
Dix, Argie 10.

I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I
use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together
until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly
than wire?

Any thoughts?

Jonathan

Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in areas
of high curvature, typically near the bow.

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic
ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and
there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust,
with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and
completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties
click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a
click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and
string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just
have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with
snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should
come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft
touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after
some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still
use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for
flexability with custom work.
Scotty, back to the hunt..

thank you for the information.
i think i will go for the copper solution, looks like the moste
logical...for adjusting and so on...

how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a
stupid question, but im a newbie :-) )

mat


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a
Dudly
Dix, Argie 10.

I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can
I
use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together
until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly
than wire?

Any thoughts?

Jonathan

Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in
areas
of high curvature, typically near the bow.

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic
ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and
there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust,
with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and
completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties
click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a
click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and
string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just
have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with
snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should
come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft
touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after
some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still
use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for
flexability with custom work.
Scotty, back to the hunt..


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004

"Matthias Broersma" wrote...

how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such
a
stupid question, but im a newbie :-) )

For their kayak kits, Pygmy Boats recommends you simply fill in the outside
seam with thickened epoxy (use wood flour if you will finish it bright; wood
flour or silica if you will paint it) to glue the panels together, then
remove the wires before doing any taping. The epoxy glues the joint and
serves as the base for the tape/cloth wrapped around the joint, reducing the
probability of voids under the tape.

If you pull the wires before the epoxy fully cures (within 24 hours), it is
possible to snip and pull out most, if not all the wires before laying any
cloth or tape. Then fair the areas around the holes. Small voids, as well
as the wire holes, will fill in when you saturate the tape/cloth with epoxy.

After that, lay the cloth or tape on the outside and squeegee in the epoxy.
Finally, fillet the inside joint with thickened epoxy before taping. The
rounded fillet will give more strength than the sharp turn of tape/cloth.

"Matthias Broersma" wrote...

how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such
a
stupid question, but im a newbie :-) )

For their kayak kits, Pygmy Boats recommends you simply fill in the outside
seam with thickened epoxy (use wood flour if you will finish it bright; wood
flour or silica if you will paint it) to glue the panels together, then
remove the wires before doing any taping. The epoxy glues the joint and
serves as the base for the tape/cloth wrapped around the joint, reducing the
probability of voids under the tape.

If you pull the wires before the epoxy fully cures (within 24 hours), it is
possible to snip and pull out most, if not all the wires before laying any
cloth or tape. Then fair the areas around the holes. Small voids, as well
as the wire holes, will fill in when you saturate the tape/cloth with epoxy.

After that, lay the cloth or tape on the outside and squeegee in the epoxy.
Finally, fillet the inside joint with thickened epoxy before taping. The
rounded fillet will give more strength than the sharp turn of tape/cloth.

"Matthias Broersma" matthias.broersmaATNOSPAMPLEASEfastwebnet.it wrote in message li.nl...
thank you for the information.
i think i will go for the copper solution, looks like the moste
logical...for adjusting and so on...


how would be the best way to glue the two parts toghether? (sorry for such a
stupid question, but im a newbie :-) )

mat

You will need to build a lamination of epoxy and fiberglass on either
side or the seam. You really should get ahold of the book "Build the
new instant boats" by Dynamite Payson, available at "instantboats.com"
or the local library or bookstore. Anyway, it is a quick read and will
walk you through the whole stitch and tape process start to finish and
add enough info so you don't have to spend your days here. After
reading this book you will have most of it down, no problem,
especially having experience with tools. It's a quick read, hour at
the most, less than 200 pages and filled with pictures and plans for 6
other small boats...

Scotty who does have a business realationship with Dynamite that is
not necessarily related to building boats, however, I get no
commissions or similar for my suggestions here on the list..




"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a
Dudly
Dix, Argie 10.

I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can
I
use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together
until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly
than wire?

Any thoughts?

Jonathan

Yes you can. Use as few as possible to keep the shape fair, more in
areas
of high curvature, typically near the bow.

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails. The seven strand is thicker but of course holds better. Plastic
ties can not be easily re-opened and tweaked during your tie up and
there will be times when you want to loosen one or two and readjust,
with ties you can only cut and redo them if that need arises and
completely cutting them to adjust can cause even more problems. Ties
click, and sometimes to get things really fair, you could use a half a
click, not possible with ties. Copper is much easier to shape and
string through the holes, you can use a much smaller hole, you just
have a lot more control. As to sanding, snip the copper off low with
snips and then touch gently a few times with your sander and it should
come right down fair, they will sand down just fine with a little soft
touch. You may rip a couple of pieces of paper but all in all after
some 70 stitch and tape boats, having tried almost everything, I still
use copper wire. I do keep a lot of sizes on hand but only for
flexability with custom work.
Scotty, back to the hunt..


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004

On the two boats I've built, I've used the cable ties. They don't bond well with epoxy so can generally remove them with pliers after epoxy as set
up. Also, if they do break and get left in the epoxy, they sand away into dust....


paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote

Yes you can [use cable ties for S&G boats].

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails.
(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
barbed wire or blackberry vines.

Who makes better trucks: Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota? Ask four
people, get four answers. All of them will get the job done. Same
with stitches.

Jacques Merten's tech support web site has some good "how to" articles
for beginners. Check he http://bateau2.com/content/section/5/28/.

Have fun. You can't build just one!

- Rick Tyler

--
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian

Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..
On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote

Yes you can [use cable ties for S&G boats].

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails.
(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
barbed wire or blackberry vines.

Yeah, I like pain.. I also wait till mid July to do all my sheathing
Really, I must admit to using many things along the road. My
philosophy with ties is to use as few as possible and a little masking
tape where the strong hold is not needed. I tried also the hot glue
tabs but if you really hate the copper you can always heat the wire
and pull it out after the epoxy has set. The key is to use what works
for you, they are only temporary attachments.

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty



Who makes better trucks: Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota? Ask four
people, get four answers. All of them will get the job done. Same
with stitches.

Jacques Merten's tech support web site has some good "how to" articles
for beginners. Check he http://bateau2.com/content/section/5/28/.

Have fun. You can't build just one!

- Rick Tyler

Backyard Renegade wrote:
Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:


(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
snip.......

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty


I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?

The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be
surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With
experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job
and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing
around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it
carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera.
Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have
some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired
and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because
you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on
curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to
cure before painting. That depends on which you select.

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project


..
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...


Backyard Renegade wrote:
Rick Tyler wrote in message
. ..

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:


(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
snip.......

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty


I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?