I was planning on building a slot into the pulpit to accomodate a
roller. I may also mount a stainless plate on the bottom to protect
the bottom of the pulpit from the anchor being yanked up into it.

What is the issue with using epoxy if I do not seal the entire pulpit?
My intention was to most likely not seal it with urethane or epoxy,
but to keep it coated with teak oil.

Also, I have never heard of resorcinol before now. What is the
difference between this and epoxy for this type of use?

In terms of using or not using pegs, I guess I was concerned about the
pressure and weight of the anchor trying to pull the strips apart
vertically. I was thinking that screws or pegs would help keep the
pulpit together when these vertical forces are aplied unevenly to
particular strips making up the pulpit. Is just the glue up strong
enough to keep it all together?

Thanks!

Rob

If you recall, Scotty was the guy suggesting pegs. He also suggested
using epoxy. So, I want to say a couple of things before people get too far
off track:

- The pegs are for alignment. You only need a couple per side of strip. If
the pulpit is long and the strips non-flat, then go with three so you can
get better alignment while gluing. Once glued, the pegs don't add much if
anything to the structure.

- If you're going to seal the pulpit up, and it's not hard if you use an
integral anchor roller that takes the anchor abuse instead of the pulpit
itself (see any commercial version), then epoxy is fine. If the wood is
going to be exposed and stay that way, then I'd consider using a different
solution (resorcinol glued teak? through-bolted teak? I don't know ..I'd
use epoxy as described).

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Maynard G. Krebbs" wrote in message
...
On 17 Dec 2003 19:53:52 -0800, (orbital) wrote:

Scotty, Thanks!

snip

Can you elaborate on the idea of pegging? I have an idea what you
mean, but am not sure exactly how this works. Do I make pegs from
dowel and drill corresponding sized holes into the strips? Is there a
technique for making sure they line up on the 2 strips? How many pegs
per strip should I use if the pulpit is to be 3 feet long? How deep
into the strips should I drill for the pegs?


snip

Rob

snip

My nephew is a cabinet maker and he uses a strip of peg-board as a jig
with a depth-stop collar on the drill bit. He just marks the holes he
wants to use on the jig. Small strips of wood on one side and both
ends are for alignment.
In your project you could lay the guide strips at the front and top
edges of your pulpit pieces. Drill, and on to the next piece of teak.
(If you did all the right sides first then flip the pieces and drill
the left sides, you won't have to flip the jig between work pieces.)

Mark E. Williams

The issue with epoxy, as with any virtually waterproof coating, is that
moisture tends to migrate through the wood until it reaches the waterproof
barrier. This region tends (then) to carry more moisture and becomes a
possible rot risk.

If you are *not* going to seal it and keep it completely sealed, then I
would not use epoxy as your glue. Do a search on the web for resorcinol,
sold under the brand name of GluVit (among others), and see what you find.
The question I have is whether or not it bonds with teak well. Either way,
if not using epoxy, then I would also recommend mounting with hardware, not
gluing. You'll want structural support from gunnel to gunnel as a minimum
and then through-bolt with 316 stainless or silicon bronze or better. Make
it strong enough to stand on.

For making a strip-built pulpit without glue, then you'll have to build it
up strip by strip using countersunk boat screws. For these 'buried' screws,
use silicon bronze or better (see Jamestown Distributors online). Screws
should be offset back and forth as you go so they are not in alignment with
each other. This will distribute the load better. Left to my own devices,
I'd probably shoot resorcinol in there between the layers as I screw them
up, letting the screws be your clamp pressure. On the outside 2 strips,
countersink deeper then use a plug cutter to make plugs from your teak. You
can glue these in to hide the screw tops and then flush-cut with a Japanese
pull saw. When the whole stack is done, expect to at least router and sand.
May have to do some planing too, so start thicker and wider than your
intended final dimension. Use a low-angle block plane and keep it sharp.
The silica in teak takes the edge away quicker than with other woods. If
you're a clever guy and would like to do a fancy job, you can route with a
45-degree bit on the top corners of each strip of teak to dress it up a bit.
I know you can fill these grooves with black polysulfide to emulate a teak
deck, but I've never done it and suspect that it may be hard to do it
neatly. The grooves alone would look nice (make sure you clean glue out
nicely if you are using it.) When the pulpit is all done and right before
installing, then you can oil it in the traditional way ...soak it well where
it contacts the boat.

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"orbital" wrote in message
om...
I was planning on building a slot into the pulpit to accomodate a
roller. I may also mount a stainless plate on the bottom to protect
the bottom of the pulpit from the anchor being yanked up into it.

What is the issue with using epoxy if I do not seal the entire pulpit?
My intention was to most likely not seal it with urethane or epoxy,
but to keep it coated with teak oil.

Also, I have never heard of resorcinol before now. What is the
difference between this and epoxy for this type of use?

In terms of using or not using pegs, I guess I was concerned about the
pressure and weight of the anchor trying to pull the strips apart
vertically. I was thinking that screws or pegs would help keep the
pulpit together when these vertical forces are aplied unevenly to
particular strips making up the pulpit. Is just the glue up strong
enough to keep it all together?

Thanks!

Rob

If you recall, Scotty was the guy suggesting pegs. He also suggested
using epoxy. So, I want to say a couple of things before people get too
far
off track:

- The pegs are for alignment. You only need a couple per side of strip.
If
the pulpit is long and the strips non-flat, then go with three so you
can
get better alignment while gluing. Once glued, the pegs don't add much
if
anything to the structure.

- If you're going to seal the pulpit up, and it's not hard if you use an
integral anchor roller that takes the anchor abuse instead of the pulpit
itself (see any commercial version), then epoxy is fine. If the wood is
going to be exposed and stay that way, then I'd consider using a
different
solution (resorcinol glued teak? through-bolted teak? I don't know
...I'd
use epoxy as described).

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Maynard G. Krebbs" wrote in message
...
On 17 Dec 2003 19:53:52 -0800, (orbital) wrote:

Scotty, Thanks!

snip

Can you elaborate on the idea of pegging? I have an idea what you
mean, but am not sure exactly how this works. Do I make pegs from
dowel and drill corresponding sized holes into the strips? Is there
a
technique for making sure they line up on the 2 strips? How many
pegs
per strip should I use if the pulpit is to be 3 feet long? How deep
into the strips should I drill for the pegs?


snip

Rob

snip

My nephew is a cabinet maker and he uses a strip of peg-board as a jig
with a depth-stop collar on the drill bit. He just marks the holes he
wants to use on the jig. Small strips of wood on one side and both
ends are for alignment.
In your project you could lay the guide strips at the front and top
edges of your pulpit pieces. Drill, and on to the next piece of teak.
(If you did all the right sides first then flip the pieces and drill
the left sides, you won't have to flip the jig between work pieces.)

Mark E. Williams

Brian D wrote:

SNIP

Do a search on the web for resorcinol,
sold under the brand name of GluVit (among others),

SNIP

Gluvit is a filled epoxy.

Resorcinol is a two-part adhesive which, while quite waterproof, is a bit of a
pain to work with. It demands tight fits, high clamping pressure and moderate
temperature. It is dark red in color and its glue lines will be visible.

It was suggested to me originally to use stainless steel wood screws
countersunk into the strips to fasten them together. Is there a
benefit to using the hardwood dowels over screws? If screwing it up
was viable, I could use the dowelling technique for the most outside
pieces to give a finished look without plugs.

I am still waiting to see if someone else has comments as to weather
pegs and epoxy are suitable for this, I still say epoxy will do the
trick if the part is mounted and supported properly. Again, if someone
out there knows different, please speak up so this guy does not get
real wet and come find me! I know someone suggested going all the way
through with rods, but this really has an effect on the strength of
the final part.

Me too.

Another post proposed the posibility of using resorcinol instead of
epoxy. I have no idea what this is. He also suggested that no pegs
would be necessary, and that I could just use a good flat piece of
wood to ensure they clamp up straight. I an still worried that the
vertical pressures put on it could sheer the strips from each other if
it was just glued up. I definitely dont want to put a rod all the way
through.


For the dowelling, how deep would you suggest I drill the holes for
the dowels if I am using 4/4 thickness strips? Also, what thickness
dowel would be appropriate given these dimensions. 2 inch thick
finished piece is about what I was shooting for.

I would use store bought, scored pegs so you do not have any glue
pressure buildup behind the pegs under pressure. You could drill
probably 7/8" into each piece and use 1 1/2" long by 3/8 thick
hardwood pegs. Remember, the holes are offset, so it is not like
drilling a hole all the way through the part.

Isn't 7/8" is going to be real close to going all the way through 4/4?



For the wiring, I was hoping to run it inside the piece to avoid it
being visible from the outside. What I had in mind was routing a
channel on the opposing faces of 2 strips before laying them up
together. Each channel could be 1/8". when glued together, a 1/4 inch
channel exists down the center, with minimal cuts in any one piece. If
it is a structurally a concern, I could make the channel towards the
edge and then drill a hole accross very close to the front of the
piece. That way I would avoid the bulk of it.

I hope this makes sense.

It does. However, how about a compromise? You build the part full
thickness and then dado a 1" wide by say, 3/16" deep trough down the
middle, on the underside of the part. Centered in that trough, dado
another trough wide and deep enough for your wires. Set in the wires
and fasten a 3/16" by 1" "cover" into the initial trough, flush with
the bottom. It would be easier than the layup schedual you have in
mind for sure. I don't like the odds, clamping the parts the way you
have suggested, leaving a blind conduit in the part. I think my way
would be stronger too, as well as leaving access to the wires.
Scotty, recovering ascii junkie...

I plan on putting a slot in the middle for the anchor and rode to pass
through so i cant go straight up the middle. Can I use this method
and make an L shape to go up the side and than laterally to the
center?

Thanks!
Rob

(orbital) wrote in message . com...
SNIP
I am still waiting to see if someone else has comments as to weather
pegs and epoxy are suitable for this, I still say epoxy will do the
trick if the part is mounted and supported properly. Again, if someone
out there knows different, please speak up so this guy does not get
real wet and come find me! I know someone suggested going all the way
through with rods, but this really has an effect on the strength of
the final part.

Me too.

Another post proposed the posibility of using resorcinol instead of
epoxy. I have no idea what this is. He also suggested that no pegs
would be necessary, and that I could just use a good flat piece of
wood to ensure they clamp up straight. I an still worried that the
vertical pressures put on it could sheer the strips from each other if
it was just glued up. I definitely dont want to put a rod all the way
through.

Wood will "walk" so you will not have straight boards to work with. I
have made jigs to hold boards flat in the layup, but they must be
massive and depend on lot's of pressure. You can start to clamp and
bang them in place with a large mallet while tightening. But all in
all, having to build only one part, I would,and do, just use the
dowels method, it makes life a lot easier. As to going in 7/8, it's
all right. You are filling the void with wood, and staggering the pins
as I have noted earlier will eliminate any problems you might
encounter by drilling all the way through the part. And again I will
note that the pins are only for the layup, the epoxy is what will hold
the thing together and I still say it will do the trick. If you are
still nervous, put a small 3/4 by 1 inch or so batten laterally across
the bottom of the part, near the front.

For the dowelling, how deep would you suggest I drill the holes for
the dowels if I am using 4/4 thickness strips? Also, what thickness
dowel would be appropriate given these dimensions. 2 inch thick
finished piece is about what I was shooting for.

I would use store bought, scored pegs so you do not have any glue
pressure buildup behind the pegs under pressure. You could drill
probably 7/8" into each piece and use 1 1/2" long by 3/8 thick
hardwood pegs. Remember, the holes are offset, so it is not like
drilling a hole all the way through the part.

Isn't 7/8" is going to be real close to going all the way through 4/4?

You could use 1" dowels come to think of it, I just have 1 1/2" that I
use, and sometimes cut. If you use 1" dowels, drill your holes 5/8
deep.



For the wiring, I was hoping to run it inside the piece to avoid it
being visible from the outside. What I had in mind was routing a
channel on the opposing faces of 2 strips before laying them up
together. Each channel could be 1/8". when glued together, a 1/4 inch
channel exists down the center, with minimal cuts in any one piece. If
it is a structurally a concern, I could make the channel towards the
edge and then drill a hole accross very close to the front of the
piece. That way I would avoid the bulk of it.

I hope this makes sense.

It does. However, how about a compromise? You build the part full
thickness and then dado a 1" wide by say, 3/16" deep trough down the
middle, on the underside of the part. Centered in that trough, dado
another trough wide and deep enough for your wires. Set in the wires
and fasten a 3/16" by 1" "cover" into the initial trough, flush with
the bottom. It would be easier than the layup schedual you have in
mind for sure. I don't like the odds, clamping the parts the way you
have suggested, leaving a blind conduit in the part. I think my way
would be stronger too, as well as leaving access to the wires.
Scotty, recovering ascii junkie...

I plan on putting a slot in the middle for the anchor and rode to pass
through so i cant go straight up the middle. Can I use this method
and make an L shape to go up the side and than laterally to the
center?

Sure, just might be a little harder to cover it up, but with some
patience you can make it blend right in.

Puff Puff Puff, I got blisters on me fingers. Note to Rob: My phone is
on my website, I can call you back toll free if you want to speed this
up. I am here mon-sat, 10 am to 9pm est. We would just fill the group
in on the results later.
Scotty

Thanks!
Rob

It has been stated clearly here...but I would re-iterate it...If you use the
dowels method..be CERTAIN that you use the GROOVED dowels. You need the
groove to allow the excess glue a chance to get back out of the holes. I did
a project once, and used regular doweling material ( non-grooved) and
puzzled forever why I couldn't camp the material easily. Seems like
something was forcing it apart. It was the excess glue trapped in the bottom
of the glue holes!!!

RichG

I'm still convinced that cross-bolts are needed here. The several
descriptions in my boatbuilding books of the construction of bow planks all
specify cross-bolting. There will be times when this plank is very heavily
loaded, like when you run the boat into something large and immoveable and when
the boat is on the anchor/mooring in a storm. The Cape Dory 28 is too good a
boat to lose to half-baked 'improvements'.

Jamestown and others have SS and bronze threaded rod. I'd do maybe one 5/16"
cross-bolt per foot of plank length. Counterbore for the ends of the
cross-bolts and bung 'em. The rods will be a big help in aligning and clamping
the assembly. For appearance, use epoxy, not resorcinol. If securely bolted, a
non-impervious finish is OK. If not, moisture will gradually open the glue
joints.

If you insist and are expecting cross-grain strength from the dowels, don't use
the grooved ones. The groove significantly reduce the effective diameter of the
dowel. Instead, just plane a flat into the side of the dowel before cutting the
dowel up. That'll allow the excell glue and air to exit.

The geometry of anchor rollers is sometimes hard to figure out. I suggect that
you get the anchor and make a propotype plank with 2x construction lumber to see
if the anchor clears the stem by just enough.

Have you contacted the builder for his recommendation? Andy Vavelotis now owns
Robinhood Marine in Robinhood, ME.

Do it right,
Jim

RG wrote:

It has been stated clearly here...but I would re-iterate it...If you use the
dowels method..be CERTAIN that you use the GROOVED dowels. You need the
groove to allow the excess glue a chance to get back out of the holes. I did
a project once, and used regular doweling material ( non-grooved) and
puzzled forever why I couldn't camp the material easily. Seems like
something was forcing it apart. It was the excess glue trapped in the bottom
of the glue holes!!!

RichG

Jim Conlin wrote in message ...
I'm still convinced that cross-bolts are needed here. The several
descriptions in my boatbuilding books of the construction of bow planks all
specify cross-bolting. There will be times when this plank is very heavily
loaded, like when you run the boat into something large and immoveable and when
the boat is on the anchor/mooring in a storm. The Cape Dory 28 is too good a
boat to lose to half-baked 'improvements'.

I will defer on this one to experience.


Jamestown and others have SS and bronze threaded rod. I'd do maybe one 5/16"
cross-bolt per foot of plank length. Counterbore for the ends of the
cross-bolts and bung 'em. The rods will be a big help in aligning and clamping
the assembly. For appearance, use epoxy, not resorcinol. If securely bolted, a
non-impervious finish is OK. If not, moisture will gradually open the glue
joints.

If you insist and are expecting cross-grain strength from the dowels, don't use
the grooved ones. The groove significantly reduce the effective diameter of the
dowel. Instead, just plane a flat into the side of the dowel before cutting the
dowel up. That'll allow the excell glue and air to exit.

Good idea, but dowels are used for alignment only here, if that is the
method he decides on.


The geometry of anchor rollers is sometimes hard to figure out. I suggect that
you get the anchor and make a propotype plank with 2x construction lumber to see
if the anchor clears the stem by just enough.

Have you contacted the builder for his recommendation? Andy Vavelotis now owns
Robinhood Marine in Robinhood, ME.

This is probably the best advice yet...


Do it right,
Jim

RG wrote:

It has been stated clearly here...but I would re-iterate it...If you use the
dowels method..be CERTAIN that you use the GROOVED dowels. You need the
groove to allow the excess glue a chance to get back out of the holes. I did
a project once, and used regular doweling material ( non-grooved) and
puzzled forever why I couldn't camp the material easily. Seems like
something was forcing it apart. It was the excess glue trapped in the bottom
of the glue holes!!!

RichG

I'm still convinced that cross-bolts are needed here. The several
descriptions in my boatbuilding books of the construction of bow planks all
specify cross-bolting. There will be times when this plank is very heavily
loaded, like when you run the boat into something large and immoveable and when
the boat is on the anchor/mooring in a storm. The Cape Dory 28 is too good a
boat to lose to half-baked 'improvements'.

Can you recommend a good book for me to pick up that details the
construction of a bow plank or pulpit? I certainly want to do it
right. That is exactly why I appealed to this group for advice.

Jamestown and others have SS and bronze threaded rod. I'd do maybe one 5/16"
cross-bolt per foot of plank length. Counterbore for the ends of the
cross-bolts and bung 'em. The rods will be a big help in aligning and clamping
the assembly. For appearance, use epoxy, not resorcinol. If securely bolted, a
non-impervious finish is OK. If not, moisture will gradually open the glue
joints.

So, this would mean that I would have to glue up all the pieces in one
shot as opposed to a few strips at a time in order to put nuts on the
ends of the threaded rods, tighten the nuts and clamp it all?

I think I am pretty convinced that Epoxy is the way to go for this.

If you insist and are expecting cross-grain strength from the dowels, don't use
the grooved ones. The groove significantly reduce the effective diameter of the
dowel. Instead, just plane a flat into the side of the dowel before cutting the
dowel up. That'll allow the excell glue and air to exit.

I have actually had been leaning towards using bronze wood screws to
line up and attach the wood pieces while glueing over pegs. I was
wondering if this would give the lateral strenght necessary.

The geometry of anchor rollers is sometimes hard to figure out. I suggect that
you get the anchor and make a propotype plank with 2x construction lumber to see
if the anchor clears the stem by just enough.

Have you contacted the builder for his recommendation? Andy Vavelotis now owns
Robinhood Marine in Robinhood, ME.

This is a good idea and I have sent out some emails to see if I can
get some feedback from them.


Do it right,
Jim

RG wrote:

It has been stated clearly here...but I would re-iterate it...If you use the
dowels method..be CERTAIN that you use the GROOVED dowels. You need the
groove to allow the excess glue a chance to get back out of the holes. I did
a project once, and used regular doweling material ( non-grooved) and
puzzled forever why I couldn't camp the material easily. Seems like
something was forcing it apart. It was the excess glue trapped in the bottom
of the glue holes!!!

RichG

I have decided to completely forego the light on the tip of the
pulpit. It seems that it will add quite a bit of work to the project
regardless of the approach and there is some question as to how it
will affect the overall strength of the finished piece.

Instead, I will add sidelights to the flybridge. They will improve
the visibility in that position as well. It just means that now I
have another wiring project to get done this winter.

The other thing I am now contemplating is if I should forget about the
slot in the pulpit. I was going to use the slot so that the anchor was
stowed under the pulpit with the rode coming through the slot and into
the windlass. Now I am thinking of using a roller on the top of the
end of the pulpit so the anchor rolls of the front and stows up front.
Again, this will make the construction easier and keep the acnhor
further out from the stem of the boat.



It does. However, how about a compromise? You build the part full
thickness and then dado a 1" wide by say, 3/16" deep trough down the
middle, on the underside of the part. Centered in that trough, dado
another trough wide and deep enough for your wires. Set in the wires
and fasten a 3/16" by 1" "cover" into the initial trough, flush with
the bottom. It would be easier than the layup schedual you have in
mind for sure. I don't like the odds, clamping the parts the way you
have suggested, leaving a blind conduit in the part. I think my way
would be stronger too, as well as leaving access to the wires.
Scotty, recovering ascii junkie...