Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting
articles ... http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/...els/index.html


"gjoyce" wrote in message
m...
I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
I've been
cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
what you
designer-types might think.

Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?


Thanks

Gary P. Joyce

William R. Watt wrote:
The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
can't you draw it?
I tend to take an existing design, and change it.
This works out a lot of the basic stuff, like ergonomics
and scantlings easily and then it can be tweaked to adapt
to whatever.

Everyone learns from everyone else
who succeeds in putting their work out there.

I approach boat design through the drawings of others.
If one wants to build something that is as close to the
designer's idea, a drawing works well in looking at all of
the details.
Often, after studying drawings of a boat, I am surprised
when I see the boat actually in the water.
Not that the boat is any different then what I know the drawing
says it should be, but there is something else that comes through
that is not in the drawing.
Some people say boats are alive. I'd say some are more alive than others.
Some people approach design instinctively. They visualize a
design, then try to build it.
Others try to choose a set of parameters and then design
a structure to deal with it.
There is a linear path that either approach takes.
They vary depending on where the designer wants to go.
When I taught myself to draw boats full size (loft), I realised
how much easier it was to then build the boat.
The drawing gave me a ready made pattern for every piece in the boat.

Mabey it could be looked at this way.
In order to communicate your idea to somebody else, you have a number of
choices. Let's call them your Media choices.
So far you have used the written word to communicate your idea.
Other Media choices might be photographs of the boat model.
Drawing would be another.
Video might be another.

I notice that people who sell boat designs usually use drawings.
That doesn't mean they have to.
I can imagine selling a design for a kit that has no drawings at all.
For instance, you display photos of your design...the actual boat.
People download a bunch of files..binary code and save it to a floppy.
They bring the disk to their local "guy with a computer driven router"
He cuts the design for the guy and the guy assembles it based on a
sequence of written instructions telling him how and in what order.
The advantages of this method are obvious. No paper..shipping...etc.
The disadvantages are that there might not be a "guy with a computer
driven router" willing to do it.
But another hidden disadvantage is that many people are used to drawings
and won't like paying for a "computer file".

So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
Is it to sell the design?
You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
Who will build it?


"Brian D" ) writes:

According to AutoCAD,...


I find that figuring out the finer details as you go works best ..."Just do
it!" (but with just a little forethought so you know if there will be a
solution to the various challenges along the way.)


I've been trying to work out all the details for a 15 ft plywood sailboat
with a cabin on paper as an exercise. I don't plan to build the boat. It's
frustrating. I was able to make a cardboard model no problem. I have a
clear image of the boat in my imagination. Getting it on paper is a
challenge. Both the cardboard model and the paper plan are abstractions
from a desired reality but the model seems less abstract. I've done some
thinking on mathematical and other abstractions over the years. The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it
before, just can't remember where right now...

bowgus wrote:
Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting
articles ... http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/...els/index.html


"gjoyce" wrote in message
m...

I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
I've been
cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
what you
designer-types might think.

Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?


Thanks

Gary P. Joyce

Barns float if you turn them upside down. Put a big outboard on them and
you can really have fun ...keep them chickens out of your eyes!

Brian

--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:30:59 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm.
????????????


************************************************** **************************
**************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Old Nick wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:30:59 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm.
????????????

I think he is out on Long Island. They have a lot of Sod (grass) farms
there. My inlaws own a bunch of acerage on shore road out near the
tip, we hit golf balls out there last time we were there. Before that,
the family grew potatoes there.
Scotty

************************************************** ****************************************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Hi

(William R. Watt) wrote in message ...

I've been trying to work out all the details for a 15 ft plywood sailboat
with a cabin on paper as an exercise. I don't plan to build the boat. It's
frustrating. I was able to make a cardboard model no problem. I have a
clear image of the boat in my imagination. Getting it on paper is a
challenge. Both the cardboard model and the paper plan are abstractions
from a desired reality but the model seems less abstract. I've done some
thinking on mathematical and other abstractions over the years. The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Realy , -------- projecting a sailboat at 15 feet with a cabin I would
think is about the edge of what is even possible. Not that you can't
find some way to place a cabin and a rig and a place to handle rope
and rudder, but realy 15 feet for a sailboat with cabin is a challance
,that very few profesional designers would ever dare try.
I would suggest somthing like a canvas top , some clever idea where
you make the intire hull into cabin when you need a cabin and take it
away when the wind only shuld meet the sails not the cabin sides,
------ again 16 feet with a cabin and decent sail abilities ; I find
that almost impossible.
But about getting it on the paper and perform a scale model I don't
understand your trouble, ------ as long as you have a printer and have
software that will produce sections this shuldn't be that big a
problem, unless you make the most common foult, to use to thick
cardboard or don't prepare having the right small spanners or the
right glue. Did you try Aero Ply, that you must be able to find down
0.4 millimeter thick 3 layer ? It is a wonderfull material for scale
models, as you can produce the paneling in a thickness that work
"realistic" beside this type of model builder Ply is strong as steel
,can be cut easy and glue perfect beside you can sand it.

You realy want to make a scale model ,then do you fiddle with the old
methods or have you found some software that will do a complete
unfolding ?

P.C.

P.C.

Nahhh ...I live in the grass seed capital of the world. Willamette Valley,
Oregon. (That's "Will -AMM-ette" and "OH-ree-gun", not "Will-a-metty" and
"or-uh-GONE" like those down east wood rubbers say.)

_Everybody_ around here is a grass farmer, although I grew up on an onion
farm. My buddy's family has been growing grass here since around 1870 or
so. My family came over the trail in 1850 (father's side that is ...my
mother was born in Stuttgart ... ja, ich bin ein Deutch).

Brian

PS: Can't hit golf balls on the grass farms around here ...gets in the way
of the goose hunting.
--
My boat project: http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass


"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message
om...
Old Nick wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:30:59 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm.
????????????

I think he is out on Long Island. They have a lot of Sod (grass) farms
there. My inlaws own a bunch of acerage on shore road out near the
tip, we hit golf balls out there last time we were there. Before that,
the family grew potatoes there.
Scotty


************************************************** **************************
**************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

On 12 Nov 2003 19:20:40 -0800, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

Ah! That sort of grass....mind you a sod farm would be well.... ummm
G

I think he is out on Long Island. They have a lot of Sod (grass) farms
there. My inlaws own a bunch of acerage on shore road out near the
tip, we hit golf balls out there last time we were there. Before that,
the family grew potatoes there.
Scotty

************************************************** ****************************************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Hi

stevej wrote in message ...
William R. Watt wrote:
The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
can't you draw it?
I tend to take an existing design, and change it.
This works out a lot of the basic stuff, like ergonomics
and scantlings easily and then it can be tweaked to adapt
to whatever.

Everyone learns from everyone else
who succeeds in putting their work out there.

I approach boat design through the drawings of others.
If one wants to build something that is as close to the
designer's idea, a drawing works well in looking at all of
the details.
Often, after studying drawings of a boat, I am surprised
when I see the boat actually in the water.
Not that the boat is any different then what I know the drawing
says it should be, but there is something else that comes through
that is not in the drawing.
Some people say boats are alive. I'd say some are more alive than others.
Some people approach design instinctively. They visualize a
design, then try to build it.
Others try to choose a set of parameters and then design
a structure to deal with it.
There is a linear path that either approach takes.
They vary depending on where the designer wants to go.
When I taught myself to draw boats full size (loft), I realised
how much easier it was to then build the boat.
The drawing gave me a ready made pattern for every piece in the boat.

Mabey it could be looked at this way.
In order to communicate your idea to somebody else, you have a number of
choices. Let's call them your Media choices.
So far you have used the written word to communicate your idea.
Other Media choices might be photographs of the boat model.
Drawing would be another.
Video might be another.

I notice that people who sell boat designs usually use drawings.
That doesn't mean they have to.
I can imagine selling a design for a kit that has no drawings at all.
For instance, you display photos of your design...the actual boat.
People download a bunch of files..binary code and save it to a floppy.
They bring the disk to their local "guy with a computer driven router"
He cuts the design for the guy and the guy assembles it based on a
sequence of written instructions telling him how and in what order.
The advantages of this method are obvious. No paper..shipping...etc.
The disadvantages are that there might not be a "guy with a computer
driven router" willing to do it.
But another hidden disadvantage is that many people are used to drawings
and won't like paying for a "computer file".

So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
Is it to sell the design?
You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
Who will build it?


Well if you think it is an idear to ask a 3D router the cost of a
small impire, 4 engineers the cost of a farm and using a foam block
the price of a Volkswagon to produce a 20 feet boat , you are wrong.
Atleast for 20 years you have had the oppotunity to router 3D, then
why do you think it shuld be an idear to make a plug in foam when
after that, you need to sand and fill, then do that form that will
make your one boat ; do you realise what this will cost ?
You suggest foto's ----- what is a foto other than a "drawing" added
perspective, but without measures and showing no sections no water
lines no data for the router; how would you even translate data-less
graphic into router data accurate down one hundred of a millimeter.
The only N.C. technikes that acturly offer a way to make this work is
2D cutting of sheet material.
What you don't realise is, that the lofting you learned is what modern
CAD work ontop of. That the CAD program already "know" lofting as that
is what the CAD program build ontop of. --------- That's why a lot of
the part result of a Loft process is not there to se, in a CAD program
; the program alrady worked further than that, it already used the
offset tables , the collum and row measurements to acturly put the
frame on the screen ; how do you othervise think a rib could be there,
if the CAD program isn't already acturly by graphic showing the bloody
stoneage tools in a much more effective and accurate way, ---------
beside when you messed that much with tradisional boat drawings, why
havn't you realised as anyone else, that the old methods show the
foults when you realy build.
Have you even realised why CAD is better to show a spline, ----- have
you ever tried to change the front or aft of a vessel on a tradisional
set of planes in 3 projections , and then tried the same with a CAD
system, as _then_ you will know.

Do it, ------ make the experience as how others had to build boat
after boat, develobing the technikes and skills, ---- test it and show
the result.
Still if you just realise that they project planes and go to Mars
based on 3D CAD , you will also realise that with a true 3D drawing
you do not need any model , unless you also question they ever reached
the moon , as you _can not_ produce a 3D drawing , unless everything
work in real.

You suggest spending a million producing a small boat from some
foto's, but don't realise that for new technology to be new, it must
be new and different.
Beside develobed by somone with just a bit experienc and the ability a
lot participant in this group hate, the ability to develob new, true
new.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

Per Corell

stevej ) writes:
William R. Watt wrote:
The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
can't you draw it?

...

So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
Is it to sell the design?
You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
Who will build it?

I see plenty of amateur boat building projects on the Internet but rarely
an amateur boat designing project. I can only think of one for a one sheet
boat and Barend Migchelsen's geometric analysis of a dory. I thought I'd
try to design a boat and show the process on my website. It's a boat I'd
like to build and sail but that's not practical for me to do. The boat
is kind of unique so I'm starting from scratch. The closest boat to it I'm
aware of is the 15 ft West Wight Potter. This is a first for me.

As part of the project I'm using some free computer programs off the net
and hope to write up some guidance on how and when to use these particular
programs as well. I'm using three because no one gives me enough
information. Although the computer programs produce line drawings from
tables of offsets I'm not happy with the way they smooth the curves as I
manipulate the offsets. I don't know how to get any of them to draw a flat
run. Those are important because I hope to use the numbers one program
puts out for cutting the plywood panels.

I've scanned sketches and captured screen images. If all goes well I hope
to take photos of models and scan them too.

If it's ever finished I won't be selling plans. People could use the design
for free as long as they don't use it for profit.


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homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned