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#1
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Yacht Design School
"Brian D" wrote:
I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the boat industry. snip I agree Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow. Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under 200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch, I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com |
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#2
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Yacht Design School
Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required) and
'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys get all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell there's pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a Grey Davis TAX on it too. Brian "Michael Porter" wrote in message ... "Brian D" wrote: I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the boat industry. snip I agree Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow. Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under 200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch, I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com |
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#3
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Yacht Design School
While I agree that a background in engineering is a must to design yachts,
the PE requirement is completely stupid. A PE license does not show that you are able to design boats. In addition to a good engineering base, a yacht designer must qualify in two other fields: extensive experience at sea and experience in boat building. I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. The licensing requirement would have very negative effects on yacht design, on new designs availabilty and price, on boats prices and on boating in general. Most of the people who design boats today, while very able, do not have a PE. They may be mechanical engineers, architects or as in my case, have degrees in chemistry and physics. Some may just be autodidacts and there is nothing wrong with that. The requirements of today's designs make the selection automatic: you will not get a job as a yacht designer if you can not do your basic calculations. The reason for that licensing requirement was the move of many US ship building activities to other parts of the world. Large ship naval architects were looking for work and discovered yacht design. A licensing requirement would have them "supervise" the work of real yacht designers but the PE's would charge for their stamp of approval thereby increasing the costs of designing new boats and almost certainly killing creativity. They just want their cut . . . I have no immediate concerns because I don't design large yachts but tomorrow, the requirement may extend to the type of boat I design, less than 65'. I became a member of the SNAME at a time when membership required two senior fellows a sponsors. That was a sufficient guarantee of expertise: work a few years for another designer and then for a yacht manufacturer and they'll decide waht you are worth. An exam during which I would have to calculate the efficiency of a steam engine will not prove that I am able to design a yacht. No school or diploma will ever give you all what is needed to become a good yacht designer. To take a beating in a mean storm and hands on boat building experience are absolutely necessary but not taught in schools. If one day I need the help of a PE, I will ask for it. I worked with an excellent one at James Krogen. I don't think that I would get a commission to design a larger yacht without setting up such a collaboration but let's not make it a blanket requirement. It would kill our profession. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "Brian D" wrote in message news:9Agfb.670589$Ho3.141187@sccrnsc03... Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required) and 'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys get all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell there's pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a Grey Davis TAX on it too. Brian "Michael Porter" wrote in message ... "Brian D" wrote: I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the boat industry. snip I agree Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow. Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under 200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch, I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com |
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#4
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Yacht Design School
Hi
"Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse .. . Snip I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a bit math. P.C. |
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#5
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Yacht Design School
Per, read the whole post before responding.
I agree with you. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "P.C." wrote in message k... Hi "Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse .. . Snip I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a bit math. P.C. |
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#6
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
"Jacques Mertens" wrote in message ...
Per, read the whole post before responding. I agree with you. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com Just curious… And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war. What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their "cannon" correctly? Scotty from SmallBoats.com "P.C." wrote in message k... Hi "Jacques Mertens" skrev i en meddelelse .. . Snip I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. But it never harmed a good design, that the one making the plans can do just a bit math. P.C. |
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#7
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
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#8
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Yacht Design School/Amateurs?
"Backyard Renegade" wrote in message om... Just curious. And I ask this in all seriousness, not to start a war. What about guys like me? Small boat builder and amateur designer (very amateur), do we have a place here, or would you exclude us from the mix as organizations such as SNAME would, if I am reading their "cannon" correctly? Scotty from SmallBoats.com There is a lot of creativity in amateur designers and I would hate to see it killed by some regulations. I don't say that one should belong to the SNAME, I am in favor of leaving the profession or hobby wide open. Since you build your own boats, you know your limits and whatever plan you produce will be buildable and float right side up. Once you start selling plans, you have a duty to your builders but there is no need for an oversight or for regulations. Natural selection will work quickly and that is the way it should be. |
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#9
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Yacht Design School
I hear what you're saying, and most of what you say is why the process of making the PE required will be slow. But in spite of those make-sense economics, several states have already done it, including the State of Washington, where they have a very large boat design and manufacturing industry. Precedents like these will make the PE trend tough to fight. So will litigation against boat designers and the companies that manufacture the boats. Liability insurance is not bad now, usually low cost and based on last year's sales, but if the boat industry follows in the tracks of others in this country, then that insurance will grow too expensive and licensing will become required in order to obtain it. Write it down and watch. None of us like it and most of us would disagree with the trend ....until you get your own PE and then you have the advantage that is.  As far as the issue of experience goes, I have to agree...I've watched businesses go out of business when run by some MIT MBA with no real-life experience while others that are run by people that worked their way up through the ranks thrive. Experience is not something you can buy. In the mean time, I would still encourage those interested in the yacht design career path to pursue a PE license, even if not yet required for small craft. A side benefit to such an individual is that he or she will have more choice about what direction their career takes. Small craft design/sales is not high income, but expensive or high-end custom work can pay better. May as well line up your credentials and start earning experience. Brian "Jacques Mertens" wrote in message .. . While I agree that a background in engineering is a must to design yachts, the PE requirement is completely stupid. A PE license does not show that you are able to design boats. In addition to a good engineering base, a yacht designer must qualify in two other fields: extensive experience at sea and experience in boat building. I have seen monstruosities designed by PE's while most beautiful and efficient boats were designed by people without a PE. The licensing requirement would have very negative effects on yacht design, on new designs availabilty and price, on boats prices and on boating in general. Most of the people who design boats today, while very able, do not have a PE. They may be mechanical engineers, architects or as in my case, have degrees in chemistry and physics. Some may just be autodidacts and there is nothing wrong with that. The requirements of today's designs make the selection automatic: you will not get a job as a yacht designer if you can not do your basic calculations. The reason for that licensing requirement was the move of many US ship building activities to other parts of the world. Large ship naval architects were looking for work and discovered yacht design. A licensing requirement would have them "supervise" the work of real yacht designers but the PE's would charge for their stamp of approval thereby increasing the costs of designing new boats and almost certainly killing creativity. They just want their cut . . . I have no immediate concerns because I don't design large yachts but tomorrow, the requirement may extend to the type of boat I design, less than 65'. I became a member of the SNAME at a time when membership required two senior fellows a sponsors. That was a sufficient guarantee of expertise: work a few years for another designer and then for a yacht manufacturer and they'll decide waht you are worth. An exam during which I would have to calculate the efficiency of a steam engine will not prove that I am able to design a yacht. No school or diploma will ever give you all what is needed to become a good yacht designer. To take a beating in a mean storm and hands on boat building experience are absolutely necessary but not taught in schools. If one day I need the help of a PE, I will ask for it. I worked with an excellent one at James Krogen. I don't think that I would get a commission to design a larger yacht without setting up such a collaboration but let's not make it a blanket requirement. It would kill our profession. -- Jacques http://www.bateau.com "Brian D" wrote in message news:9Agfb.670589$Ho3.141187@sccrnsc03... Here in Oregon, they differentiate between 'architect' (no PE required) and 'engineer'. Boat design still falls under 'architect'. The State guys get all pinch-faced and whiney when you ask them about it...you can tell there's pressure to get licensing onto boat design. Knowing Oregon, they'll put a Grey Davis TAX on it too. Brian "Michael Porter" wrote in message ... "Brian D" wrote: I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the boat industry. snip I agree Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow. Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under 200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch, I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com |
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#10
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Yacht Design School
I have a Bsc in mechanical eng and I wanted to learn more about small craft
design (not only yachts) the price diefference between westlawn and MacNaughton is very big that the reason I wanted to get some more information about MacNaughton. thanks dan "Michael Porter" wrote in message ... "Brian D" wrote: I'd rank the Landing School (if you can afford a year off) and Westlawn higher. Westlawn (now run by Dave Gerr) is now associated with the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and was previously associated with the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) ...two huge greats in the boat industry. snip I agree Two states now require the naval architecture PE. Others may follow. Actually, almost all states do -- now that there is a PE exam, naval arch falls under the def of engineering, which is quite broad in most states. Maine has just passed a law exempting work on boats under 200', RI (and maybe one other state) explicitly exempts naval arch, I would not want to be starting out now without an engineering degree. Cheers, Michael Porter Michael Porter Naval Architect / Boatbuilder mporter at mp-marine dot com www.mp-marine.com |
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