PC, Your spending too much time at the computer. Pleeeeease go back
to the shop and build something.

Ron

Who? Me? I am building something. Look:
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass On the home page, mine'll be more
like the one on the right. A Pacific Northwest style recreational fishing
boat.

Brian


"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
PC, Your spending too much time at the computer. Pleeeeease go back
to the shop and build something.

Ron

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 04:28:54 GMT, "Brian D"
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

ummm.... " PC, Your sp"

PC is who you are arguing with.


Who? Me? I am building something. Look:
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass On the home page, mine'll be more
like the one on the right. A Pacific Northwest style recreational fishing
boat.

Brian


"Ron Thornton" wrote in message
...
PC, Your spending too much time at the computer. Pleeeeease go back
to the shop and build something.

Ron



************************************************** ****************************************
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

My dear Per....

First...I want to offer you my respect for your passion and commitment
to your idea(r).... although I do not agree with your approach. The
world has too many people who do not think and imagine and try to
reach beyond the ordinary...and you are one of the wonderful people
who are trying to do something new and creative.

For that I thank you and respect you.

Now I would like to offer you two thoughts that explain why I am not
yet a believer in your "3D-H" approach to architecture. My words are
meant to be friendly and helpful... they are not meant as an attack.

1. My first concern may seem technical...but I would like to point
out that... exactly because it is technical.... it is a very serious
concern. There is a question that many have asked you...and I have not
heard a good answer from you. That question is ... "What material do
you intend to use? ...and how will this particular material be formed
into the shapes you recommend?" Now maybe you think this is just a
minor detail...but I do not. In every human art....painting,
sculpture, music, ceramics, photography, computer graphics,
architecture... the relationship between form and technique is at the
very heart of the art. In other words, the form we choose cannot be
divorced from the materials and technology we use to make those forms.
Michelangelo's sculpture of David is not wonderful because of his idea
for it....but because he found within a highly veined piece of local
stone a form that he could use to express his idea of David. In art,
the idea and the making are not separate issues. This is profoundly
true of architecture. For example.... In ancient Babylon, the
beautiful city walls and arched gateways were made of mud bricks faced
in glazed tiles (btw....these arches were built a few thousand years
before the Roman Empire... so it is not true that the Romans invented
the arch!). Without the beautifully painted glazed tiles, the walls
and entry gates would not survive the extreme Iraqi climate. So the
details of the materials were a critical component of the
architectural form ...from the very beginning!!! Similarly, the
structural forms of the Greek classical temples were direct
reflections of the structural characteristics of the stone used for
columns and beams....as can be seen when we look at the radically
different architecture of the Japanese palaces at Kyoto....which also
used columns and beams....but now with wood instead of stone...so that
the spacing, proportions and openness are completely different. We can
move forward to any great moment in architectural history and see that
the physical forms are direct manifestations of the particular
qualities of the specific materials used. The wonder of the Gothic
cathedrals is the brilliant and sophisticated mastery of the stone
material available...which the architects (yes...these were designed
and built by professional architects, despite the nonsense folklore
that says they were built by the uninformed faith of the masses!) used
in ways that pushed the material to the absolute limit of its
capacities. We can jump ahead to the first masterpiece of the
Renaissance, the dome of the Cathedral of Florence...and we can see
that the form was ONLY possible because the architect, Brunelleschi,
understood that stone or masonry by itself WAS INCAPABLE of achieving
the form he wanted, so he introduced a chain of tensile material to
counter the forces created by the stone! If we jump ahead a few
hundred years, we see that the original stimulus for modern
architecture was the development....by industry and engineers....of
new materials that made possible forms that architects had never even
considered! It was in the search for how to use these new materials
that we get the wonders of Labrouste's libraries in Paris, the Crystal
Palace in London or the simply wonderful masterpieces of the Villa
Savoye and the Barcelona Pavilion. The fact is that the specifics of
how we make a thing are at the heart of what we make....whether we
are talking about the weave of a piece of cloth or the hand-marks on a
piece of thrown pottery or the rivets of a 19th century iron bridge or
the tension cables of a Calatrava structure. You have proposed
dramatic new forms.... but you have not told us what they are or how
they are made.... and this makes them either meaningless or ....at
best.... undeveloped as architectural proposals.

2. The second point is one I think I suggested to you a few years
ago....and it is equally important. Architecture is not really about
structures....it is about spaces for humans and their belongings and
their activities. Therefore, the shape of architectural space must be
driven by the human actions instead of by the construction. Any means
of construction is simply an interesting curiosity unless it forms the
spaces needed by humans. In other words... if the spaces are driven by
the structural system, it is simply an engineering novelty ...not a
work of architecture.

So...if I can summarize.... when you can demonstrate...through a
constructed example used by humans.... that your system is well-suited
to accommodate a wide variety of human uses, and is readily built by
humans ...then I will gladly pay attention!

Until then I will applaud you as a welcome visionary ...but not as an
architect.

Christopher

"P.C." wrote in message . dk...
Hi

"Christopher K. Egan" skrev i en meddelelse
om...
"Syd Mead" wrote in message
news:fhZcb.6374$Rd4.3448@fed1read07...


(big snips)


Don, (a draftsman/designer in alt.architecture) began calling Per "a true
visionary" etc.
It all went downhill from there.


.......................

For the record...I like Don.

As for his judgement regarding our dear friend Pers....

I will only say.....


I like Don.

Don likes the rebel in Pers....Don likes and encourages the guy who
has a passion and follows it.

I think Don cares less about the quality of Per's idea in this case
than the passion of Per the idealist.

I accept Don's attitude....more than Per's ideas.

But I also like Per. ...more than I like his ideas.

Christopher

Thank's for the nice words.
I just wonder how many of groups members who realise if it is easy or difficult
, to build from scratch clearing a new road.
Esp. when the last thing you want to do, is to build from scratch as if you pick
a brick your lead is done , and why pick a new road when you anyway will build
from bricks.
Ok , you then can decide that this new road must be projected with computers, so
after you spend your time not just being a user, but a super user and
application develober , then you are sure you don't just use the old method in
new clotches , ------ what the hell is then all these bricks laying around, when
the last thing you wanted to do, was to continue out of the Lego-Mind road .
Right then you get glad, as people with hands-on experience and knowing the
weight of the materials and the actural trouble with these must be the right
direction, ------ but then why is it the boxwork seem so damn'ed square , when
technology let you form and create just as you form, ------- why must one wall
have the weight of 500 ton, to hold millimeter thin sheets in the air ; is all
this hount for high-tech and fancy , just an attitude ?
Now I don't know if you fully understand when I say, that from mid 90' and even
before, the claim to visionary artists, been to be master of high-tech ; know
and master the software aswell as software , as "we want somthing new"
---------- Problem is, that even millions spended and just as much cluless
writing , all that came out of this hount for an image , is the sentense that
follow the claim "we want somthing new and fantastic high-tech " acturly the
next claim is ; " But the new thing we ask, must be somthing we already know".
Now this already fit with the idear that "the new" must be somthing
revolusionary , ------ except a few details. First it must not mean a revolution
and secondly it must not question the emporor. "The new" must not be so
difficult that the old architcts lose their posision and it must be so easy that
the same ones can lecture . You se "the new" and exiting options must not prove
better than a brick and it must work as how we laied bricks for thousands of
years , as if not it is not "new" , right ?
Beside when steel been cut and assembled with rivets ,bolts and welding for
decades, a "new" thing must ofcaurse be as rigid as alway's , as what is more
important than just getting a bright new Vision that bring new jobs is, that it
in not to be seen as somthing that question the settled way, --------- "we want
somthing new and fancy, but it must not look as being better than the old scrap,
and it must not challance our good friends".

The fight against the advanced high-tech tools I been bringing, have most often
not been a fight based on technical facts, ------- but one thing I learned in
these discussions is, that nomatter my self critic and systematic following the
few safe tracks I document with true knowleage about what I speak, and within I
work, ---------- You my friend can only understand the image you already want
to se. No one want "the new" , as this mean that a self thought guy, will
challance the gains and the social inviroment , -------- the emporors clotches
is not missing they just carry visual stealth and the thief alway's needed a bad
exchouse , a bad exchouse allow any academic to steal whatever , as long as the
rest of the crowd back up the bad exchouse, ------- just wait and se, social
harasment within the architectural world is not just about bullying , but I made
it a bit more difficult by publishing my works on the web.

Let me point to an old example ; I filed in to a contest and as you proberly
will know, I spended some halve of the short written presentation , to point out
that this was about new building methods and a direct link production method,
explained with good drawings and calculated in terms of cost pr.sq. meter build
, I recived the jury's papers that on first page wrote ; " not one single of
the 47 suggestions, did even scratch the surface or point to the obvious options
connecting the computer drawing with the actural production of the building
element" ---------- as so it continued.
Now please ansver me, if somthing is rotten in the state where the architects
display Liebskinds suggestion about a wtc rebuild ?

Please tell me if what you tell the students is not just one big lie.

You want another example , or can anyone already tell where all the nice
buildings that could have been , has gone.

P.C.

Christopher K Egan says:

My dear Per....

First...I want to offer you my respect for your passion and commitment
to your idea(r)....

snip-de-dip!

and is readily built by
humans ...then I will gladly pay attention!

Until then I will applaud you as a welcome visionary ...but not as an
architect.

Dear Christopher,
First, I want to let you know that your prose is wonderful and your grammar
close to good, but your punctuation stinks.
Once you have presented a post that uses commas where they should be instead of
multiple ellipses (as in the plural of "ellipsis"), then I will applaud you as
a writer and welcome you to cross-post in rec.boats.building.
;-)

Steve
PS - top-posting doesn't help, either.

"Christopher K. Egan" wrote
You have proposed
dramatic new forms.... but you have not told us what they are or how
they are made....

Can this not be said of any advancements in the past?
Thomas Edison *conceived* the idea of the lightbulb with no knowledge of
what the key element shall be, the filament. He tried well over 1000
materials before he found that bamboo worked excellently. (in fact here at
the Fort Myers Edison Museum they have original bamboo filament light bulbs
that have been lit continuously since Edison was alive.)

A problem is identified and then a solution is discovered.
This is what Per is professing.
The limitations (problem) with *Lego* style construction, and a solution,
3DH.
Though he has not identified the steps taken to get from Lego to 3DH his
vision is totally possible in the future.
Now, having said that, I am not married to Pers concept as it is largely
speculation at this point and I am a naturally skeptical person.
I do believe however that the way we now do construction will continue to
advance, to become more streamlined and less complicated, less costly, in
the future. Who knows, maybe our grandkids will live in self sufficient
extruded 50' diameter x 200' long gravity tubes hovering 500' in the air in
the late 21st century as all the land will be used up, the resources and
animals gone and geopolitical turmoil will rule the earth.

and this makes them either meaningless or ....at
best.... undeveloped as architectural proposals.

Pers ideas are not meaningless except to those that lack vision and
imagination, and I am not sure his ideas can be limited to the
*architectural* field.

GS/Don quote: "Edison tried over 1000 materials...." How many has Per
tried? Even at and economical scale?
I believe Thomas Edison spent most of his time in the lab, creating and
testing. He did not merely suggest the potential
for the lightbulb and expect every to buy into it. I suppose anyone willing
take a guess at what 'might be' in the future
is a "visionary". So Don, I guess you are right. Enjoy basking in the
bliss.

Syd














"Don" one-if-by-land.concord.com wrote in message
...

Can this not be said of any advancements in the past?
Thomas Edison *conceived* the idea of the lightbulb with no knowledge of
what the key element shall be, the filament. He tried well over 1000
materials before he found that bamboo worked excellently. (in fact here at
the Fort Myers Edison Museum they have original bamboo filament light
bulbs
that have been lit continuously since Edison was alive.)

This is not an esoteric concept. The various building materials that
could be used are obvious to me, they are just not tested yet. Per has
many times talked of various materials. As to boat building, we have
discussed plywood, sheet metal composite panels and if I understand him
correctly, even some type of particle board when it becomes advanced
enough to us in marine applications, because (good and maybe all)
plywood might be on its way out. I'm sure the guy who originally
invented the wall did not think of dry wall as a material. Materials
evolve in a construction method as it is developed for various
applications.

I can see a lot of ways to use this method. I would love to try it on a
radio controlled airplane or boat. But I am not going to invest in the
software and hardware necessary to do it without seeing it done by
someone else first. As Tom Edison bore the responsibility and reaped
the rewards of developing his design, Per has the same responsibility.
Again, I say to Per with all sincerity, BUILD SOMETHING.

Ron

I new Tom Edison. Tom Edison was a friend of mine. There are no Tom
Edison's here.

Hi
Sorry the snip

,
Christopher


You are quite right, but just emagine such cruel charecters exist, that would
build the cheapest, strongest and best , as they wanted to make a lot of money.
Most educated who know 3D-H just know, that the best way to do the best, with
any cheap sheet materiel , --- that nomatter how wrong you try do it, a 3D-H
will alway's provide just the right structure, with the lowest weight .
Also why point as I would point when there is no point even. Why infront show
why and where all sorrow and pain. Great show ; the architect can't draw, the
develober don't want to make money, and still somone think you just open your
mouth, and fried birds come flying. Sure they do, but maby not the right kind .
But you have not lost any vision when somone can point to the same already , I
am sure the result will be better, if another generation architects, provide the
actural structure, for the defined volumes, -------- my advise don't make
highrise from it even doubled up ; you can't pile a bunch of furnitures , and
think they will fly in the air, not unless 3D-H .
Pipeworks all types is the real challance for 3D-H , but as long as you Romans
find out , that there is more then 4 bits, just emagine the best clasic
architecture in 3D-H , it will blow your mind.
Also you are right that the world would need many more Einsteins, Newtons,
Mozart's , Edit piaf's , and guess what if you want one real you must pay the
100 notquite Einsteins , if you don't tread them right, they never yield the
one and best "Einstein", beside I love stories esp. those where those living as
rats in urban slum, get the chance to change al the old junk, ------- sure 3D-H
build a highrise without trusses and hangers, but it also will provide a
fireprove house.
Can be done with old 8 bit technology , this my fellow designers, is your tools,
not go chase beauty )
What's wrong with that architect, even he can't draw he shuld be able to build
up a team that can provide jobs and new technology, you never bring me to admid
I can not draw 3D, as if you want a train station, I will provide the cheapest
in 3D-H .
But no cruel buisness man maby se the only right modern way to save a third the
cost on any structure making it four times as strong, and nicer than a box.
Anyway talking about the emporors clotches, all you guy's know , that if you
gave me 14 month, I alone would provide full-scale drawings, for a cooling unit
part spacecraft hull, that will make shuttles as safe as a row boat, but you
Romans want to draw fancy airliners . Even the emporors new clotches can _only_
be made with 3D-H , as that is the only "material" that provide visual stealth ;
http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/:))/tuba-ff.jpg
http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/:))/tuba-d.jpg

Still I guess most who join the list, time after time, get to know more and more
about the digital design tools, artists who master the digital options, have at
hand.
I never questioned the architect but I don't think he can draw, maby I can't
either but then I can develob a building method.
P.C.

Hi

"Ron Thornton" skrev i en meddelelse
...
This is not an esoteric concept. The various building materials that
could be used are obvious to me, they are just not tested yet. Per has
many times talked of various materials. As to boat building, we have
discussed plywood, sheet metal composite panels and if I understand him
correctly, even some type of particle board when it becomes advanced
enough to us in marine applications, because (good and maybe all)
plywood might be on its way out. I'm sure the guy who originally
invented the wall did not think of dry wall as a material. Materials
evolve in a construction method as it is developed for various
applications.

I can see a lot of ways to use this method. I would love to try it on a
radio controlled airplane or boat. But I am not going to invest in the
software and hardware necessary to do it without seeing it done by
someone else first. As Tom Edison bore the responsibility and reaped
the rewards of developing his design, Per has the same responsibility.
Again, I say to Per with all sincerity, BUILD SOMETHING.

Ron

I new Tom Edison. Tom Edison was a friend of mine. There are no Tom
Edison's here.


I was just about to write the group, and kind of exchouse, that a train station,
I shuld never have commented with my own suggestion, I never would anyway have
the chance to suggest, discussion in another group, couls post highrise waves by
cross post, by the reactions only.
This web thing realy became alive as my mailbox recive atleast 5000 posts a day
now.
3D-H somtimes can get out of hand , esp. when what you fancy is both good
quality and nice design, but 3D-H is ment as a new strong option, if you want a
cotteage or a sailboat, ----------- bad luck the guy who invented it, can't both
project a shuttle ,at the same time as making the subways easyer to build, so I
guess this is as far you can go, at some point you refined your goals and means
and still you havn't tied the last strains.
True ------ even this is off-topic, I think I must join with the sheet material
issue ; if you knew how cheap you can produce a boat in chipwood, and how well
performing one in even pressed heystraw sheet will perform , you realise the
fact, that some woods, is "better " than steel . Sheet material can be cut with
a jigsaw, and when you can replace trusses and hangers in a steel structure, by
one in 3D-H , the main issue will be the material charecter and ease, what's
easier than 8 bit and sheet material )
Any new alway's been an option, but when it cost one $ per cut meter , when the
method is there everywhere or just where somone rather cut with water, than
sharpening drills.
The discussion in the architect group often get out of hand , from my
posision ------- with architecture you must have the ansver already with boats
building the ansver is already there , a nice boat .
Please check a very strong and proberly not so expensive framework, for a
building that must be covered with sheet material, it's projected in 8 mm steel
sheet assembly and can easily be made hold fire proving and or heating chanels ;
http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2573.html

P.C.