Dave Skolnick wrote:

Can't help with your question, but I have one of my own. I read your
web site, so I understand (I think) how you have your grey water pump
plumbed, but not why. Minimize the throughhulls? Something else?

Primarily to minimize through hulls and keep them out of the area
forward of the keel where the most slamming can occur. Also, the galley
arangement required that the sink be against the side where it may be
below the waterline at a large angle of heel. That meant a sump and
pump or religiously closing a throughhull every time. If the sump is
going to be there for the sink it is logical to plumb everything else to
it.

Oh! Yea again. There is one more small booster pump in the forward head
shower sump.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

more time sailing less time pumping, you'll go blind.


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
...
Having searched for hours for nonfunctioning pumps on deliveries I
decided to put all my pumps on one centrally located platform under the
salon sole. There are two fresh water pumps, one salt water wash down
pump, one air conditioner cooling water pump, one fuel transfer pump,
one Jabsco Sea Gulp bilge pump and a grey water pump. Only the waste
pump, high pressure anchor sprayer and oil change pump are off the
platform.

Now I have to add a booster pump for the watermaker pump. Has anyone
ever used the washdown pump as a watermaker boost pump?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

... Has anyone
ever used the washdown pump as a watermaker boost pump?

Jim Woodward wrote:

As you certainly know, broadly there are two classes of pumps, high
pressure / low volume and low pressure / high volume.

I agree, although the distinction between positive displacement & nonPD is important for several
reasons.

Most booster pumps are non positive displacement so that they don't overpressurize the inlet
side of the main pump casing. They can also supply positive flow over a wider pressure range,
such as delivery to several subsystems.

Another nice thing about non positive dispalacement pumps is that they can have flow through
them when not running, and can readily be primed from either side.


The former is
good for water pressure, washdown and fire while the latter are used
for bilge and sump applications. The best example of this difference
is the Jabsco diaphragm pumps, where you can buy the same motor and
frame driving different belt pulleys and diaphragms -- a single spare
motor can back up both your freshwater and sump pumps....

Now I suspect the watermaker doesn't care much about pressure (there
are so many variations today that I can't say for sure) and might even
be upset if you had too much, but it does want a certain volume and
minimum air. So, offhand, I'd suggest the AC cooling water pump
rather than the washdown pump.

Agreed, with the caveat that the AC cooling pump might be alternating current whereas Glenn
might want to run his watermaker on 12V DC.



But, you have a better way to make the choice -- look at the specs on
the manufacturer recommended watermaker booster pump and then pick the
pump you have that is closest.

Too logical here. Aren't you even going to call anybody names?!?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Caught oversimplifying. Two demerits. Doug is right, of course,
although in my defense I will point out that the Air Con pump is
almost certainly centrifugal (and, hence, non-PD) while the washdown
could be either, so my suggestion is OK.

Of course, in your praise of non-PD pumps, you don't mention that they
are unholy nuisances, prone to lose their prime at the slightest
provocation -- I remember surfing in the Southern trades from the
Galapagos to the Marquesas, a lot of air under the boat and the reefer
going down every five minutes because its pump didn't like air.
Changing course to pamper a pump isn't my idea of ideal. Fortunately
the pump was happy to run dry, but I would have traded it for a
diaphragm pump of sufficent capacity in a second. (Or why Fintry has
pressurized seawater available in volume from any of three sea chests
-- I love the conservatism of the Royal Navy, but that's another
story).

Rutuonline doesn't tell us which supply he's running the watermaker
from, so you may be right there.

As for, "Too logical here. Aren't you even going to call anybody
names?!?", I am the voice of reason -- I don't ever call people names,
even when they're flaming something-or-others (which, let there be no
mistake, does not apply to Glenn or Doug).

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com



DSK wrote in message ...
Glenn Ashmore wrote:

... Has anyone
ever used the washdown pump as a watermaker boost pump?

Jim Woodward wrote:

As you certainly know, broadly there are two classes of pumps, high
pressure / low volume and low pressure / high volume.

I agree, although the distinction between positive displacement & nonPD is important for several
reasons.

Most booster pumps are non positive displacement so that they don't overpressurize the inlet
side of the main pump casing. They can also supply positive flow over a wider pressure range,
such as delivery to several subsystems.

Another nice thing about non positive dispalacement pumps is that they can have flow through
them when not running, and can readily be primed from either side.


The former is
good for water pressure, washdown and fire while the latter are used
for bilge and sump applications. The best example of this difference
is the Jabsco diaphragm pumps, where you can buy the same motor and
frame driving different belt pulleys and diaphragms -- a single spare
motor can back up both your freshwater and sump pumps....

Now I suspect the watermaker doesn't care much about pressure (there
are so many variations today that I can't say for sure) and might even
be upset if you had too much, but it does want a certain volume and
minimum air. So, offhand, I'd suggest the AC cooling water pump
rather than the washdown pump.

Agreed, with the caveat that the AC cooling pump might be alternating current whereas Glenn
might want to run his watermaker on 12V DC.



But, you have a better way to make the choice -- look at the specs on
the manufacturer recommended watermaker booster pump and then pick the
pump you have that is closest.

Too logical here. Aren't you even going to call anybody names?!?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Now *THAT'S* what I call a prime throwaway line - or two....

I remember surfing ....

Brian [envy, envy] Whatcott Altus OK

On 13 Aug 2003 15:11:30 -0700, (Jim Woodward)
wrote:

Caught oversimplifying. Two demerits. ///
-- I remember surfing in the Southern trades from the
Galapagos to the Marquesas, a lot of air under the boat and the reefer
going down every five minutes because its pump didn't like air.
Changing course to pamper a pump isn't my idea of ideal.
///
Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Jim Woodward" wrote in message m...
SNIP (Or why Fintry has
pressurized seawater available in volume from any of three sea chests
-- I love the conservatism of the Royal Navy, but that's another
story).
Jim,

I've been mulling over the merits of sea chests recently. Could you please
tell me a little more about Fintry's sea chests. In particular, where are the
openings in the hull, how large are the openings, and is there any clever
shaping to the hull openings to minimise drag and/or increase water flow
into them? I'm also interested to hear about any other aspects of the sea
chest arangement that you think might be of interest.

I think my design philosophy probably exhibits much of the "conservatism
of the Royal Navy" so I'd love to know in more detail what they did.

Thanks in advance,

Julian.

Julian:

Since I couldn't reply to your e-mail, I posted a response to this in
the original thread, "To Many Pumps"...

Jim

"Julian" wrote in message ...
"Jim Woodward" wrote in message m...
SNIP (Or why Fintry has
pressurized seawater available in volume from any of three sea chests
-- I love the conservatism of the Royal Navy, but that's another
story).
Jim,

I've been mulling over the merits of sea chests recently. Could you please
tell me a little more about Fintry's sea chests. In particular, where are the
openings in the hull, how large are the openings, and is there any clever
shaping to the hull openings to minimise drag and/or increase water flow
into them? I'm also interested to hear about any other aspects of the sea
chest arangement that you think might be of interest.

I think my design philosophy probably exhibits much of the "conservatism
of the Royal Navy" so I'd love to know in more detail what they did.

Thanks in advance,

Julian.

This is in response to an e-mail from Julian. The return address on
his e-mail is , hence the reply here.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julian"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: Fintry's sea chests
Jim,

I've been mulling over the merits of sea chests recently. Could you please
tell me a little more about Fintry's sea chests. In particular, where are the
openings in the hull, how large are the openings, and is there any clever
shaping to the hull openings to minimise drag and/or increase water flow
into them? I'm also interested to hear about any other aspects of the sea
chest arangement that you think might be of interest.

I think my design philosophy probably exhibits much of the "conservatism
of the Royal Navy" so I'd love to know in more detail what they did.

Thanks in advance,

Julian



Julian:

If you go to our web site, you'll find a piping diagram:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/piping800.png
and lines drawing:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/flines800.png

If you're interested, I can send you bigger versions (ie, more
legible) of either -- just say how big is OK. The originals are in
AutoCAD, if any of those formats are helpful.

The sea chests are at frame 8 and 17 (of 45 total, 20" spacing), so
they are well aft of midships, but they are also well down under the
hull, where there is little deadrise. This is a disadvantage when she
is in very shallow water or sitting in a mud berth. Her sister,
Amazon Hope (see link on site), which is way up the Amazon in Peru,
has recently been modified to avoid this problem.

(The drawings at the bottom of http://www.mvfintry.com/details.htm all
show frame locations).

The chests are just steel boxes welded to the inside of the hull, with
grating holes in the hull plating -- no special shaping at all.
They're maybe a foot square and 6" high and have two valves mounted on
the top for seawater intake and weed clearance (if you look at the
piping layout, valves M19, M20, and M21 allow you to inject pressure
seawater into a seachest with the intake valve closed to blast away
anything that might clog the chest. Obviously, this trick works only
if you have more than one seachest.)

On the intake side, there's a large (although not particularly fine)
strainer with a valve on either side to isolate it for cleaning. All
the piping is galvanized steel, which requires attention from time to
time, but has the advantage that it won't burn and sink the boat in
case of an engine room fire.

The fundamental advantage of a sea chest system is minimum holes in
the hull. On a smaller scale than Fintry, when we bought our Swan 57,
Swee****er, she had ten seawater intakes (engine, genset,
refrigeration, 3 air conditioners, 2 heads, washdown, watermaker) and
ten intake seacocks. If you started flooding, you'd have to close ten
seacocks, several of which were very difficult to reach, in order to
eliminate a bad hose as the cause of the flooding.

As part of the preparation for our circumnav, we put in one 2"
seacock, and manifolded everything to it. On top of the seacock was a
tee, with the manifold connected to the side and a pipe plug in the
top (think of the tee on its side with the straight through part
vertical). By closing the sea cock, removing the pipe plug, screwing
in a three foot length of pipe (long enough to be above waterline),
and opening the seacock, we could push a rod down through the pipe,
the tee, the seacock, and the hull and clean the intake.

All of this requires some care to get it big enough and to make sure
that centrifugal pumps have a steady upward path so that air will move
up and out even if the pump loses its prime. On Fintry that's easy --
the engine room is twenty feet square and nine feet high and things
like air con that use centrifugal pumps can be racked well above the
seachest. On Swee****er, it was much harder, as everything was fitted
into fairly small spaces.

You'd like the intake to be in a high pressure area on the hull (see
your naval architect) and I'd probably put a clamshell aft of it to
help things along unless I were racing. The clamshell should be clear
of the rod-through-the-hull trick if you use it.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Jim Woodward wrote:

.... in my defense I will point out that the Air Con pump is
almost certainly centrifugal (and, hence, non-PD) while the washdown
could be either, so my suggestion is OK.

Righto



Of course, in your praise of non-PD pumps, you don't mention that they
are unholy nuisances, prone to lose their prime at the slightest
provocation --

The times I've had this problem, it was tracable to a problem(s) with the system.
It's not inherently the nature of centrifugal pumps. However a lot of pumps suffer
from excessive casing clearance either due to wear or cheap manufacture; bad
suction piping runs or sharing a suction with another system & thus having to fight
for prime or being installed above the waterline or having air leaks in the suction
(choose one or all the above).

Having just repiped & remounted two pumps on our boat, and seen a lot of crummy
installations on OPBs lately, it seems like an epidemic. But industry and the
military don't have these problems often (and they pay more, too, hard as that is
to believe).


Jim Woodward wrote:

This is in response to an e-mail from Julian. The return address on

Julian:

If you go to our web site, you'll find a piping diagram:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/piping800.png
and lines drawing:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/flines800.png

Thanks very much for your second post & links. I am considering installing sea
chests on our boat and this is very thought-provoking, useful material.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Jim Woodward" wrote in message om...
This is in response to an e-mail from Julian. The return address on
his e-mail is , hence the reply here.


Jim,

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain both Fintry's and
your earlier Swan 57 sea chest set ups, and sorry about the email
address, I forgot that I'd recently changed it on my newsreader.
I have a few comments regarding your email below...

If you go to our web site, you'll find a piping diagram:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/piping800.png
and lines drawing:
http://www.mvfintry.com/pix/flines800.png

If you're interested, I can send you bigger versions (ie, more
legible) of either -- just say how big is OK. The originals are in
AutoCAD, if any of those formats are helpful.

The stuff on your website is perfectly legible thanks.


The sea chests are at frame 8 and 17 (of 45 total, 20" spacing), so
they are well aft of midships, but they are also well down under the
hull, where there is little deadrise. This is a disadvantage when she
is in very shallow water or sitting in a mud berth. Her sister,
Amazon Hope (see link on site), which is way up the Amazon in Peru,
has recently been modified to avoid this problem.

(The drawings at the bottom of http://www.mvfintry.com/details.htm all
show frame locations).

The chests are just steel boxes welded to the inside of the hull, with
grating holes in the hull plating -- no special shaping at all.
They're maybe a foot square and 6" high and have two valves mounted on
the top for seawater intake and weed clearance (if you look at the
piping layout, valves M19, M20, and M21 allow you to inject pressure
seawater into a seachest with the intake valve closed to blast away
anything that might clog the chest. Obviously, this trick works only
if you have more than one seachest.)

There's no such thing as a new idea! I was considering a very similar
mechanism of 2 sea chests and building in the facility to back-flush
each sea chest if it became blocked. One thing that strikes me about
the Fintry flushing arrangement however (if I have understood it correctly)
is that, because it uses a seperate valve to inject water for clearing the
seachest, it probably won't always clear a blockage in the mouth of the
inlet valve (before the strainer) and might even make it worse. I was
considering setting up each seachest with just one seacock leading to
a strainer (like Fintry) but after the strainer then having a valve arrangement
so that if the input becomes blocked the valves can be set to isolate the
upstream water flow and allow water to be pumped out through the strainer
and inlet to try to clear any obstruction that way. It seems to me that blasting
water out through the inlet is the most effective way to clear any obstruction.

If I do it this way then I don't really see the need for a sea chest as
such and the simpler "sea chest" of your earlier Swan 57 would seem
sufficient, provided that the necessary calculations are done to ensure
that the inlet size and placement is sufficient to provide adequate flow
for everything manifolded off it.


On the intake side, there's a large (although not particularly fine)
strainer with a valve on either side to isolate it for cleaning. All
the piping is galvanized steel, which requires attention from time to
time, but has the advantage that it won't burn and sink the boat in
case of an engine room fire.

The fundamental advantage of a sea chest system is minimum holes in
the hull. On a smaller scale than Fintry, when we bought our Swan 57,
Swee****er, she had ten seawater intakes (engine, genset,
refrigeration, 3 air conditioners, 2 heads, washdown, watermaker) and
ten intake seacocks. If you started flooding, you'd have to close ten
seacocks, several of which were very difficult to reach, in order to
eliminate a bad hose as the cause of the flooding.

As part of the preparation for our circumnav, we put in one 2"
seacock, and manifolded everything to it. On top of the seacock was a
tee, with the manifold connected to the side and a pipe plug in the
top (think of the tee on its side with the straight through part
vertical). By closing the sea cock, removing the pipe plug, screwing
in a three foot length of pipe (long enough to be above waterline),
and opening the seacock, we could push a rod down through the pipe,
the tee, the seacock, and the hull and clean the intake.

That's a good idea. Actually, there is one other sea chest arrangement
I have heard of that incorporates this, in a way it's like Fintry's seachest
in that it's a foot share box welded (well, glassed, since it was fibreglass)
to the hull, but instead of being 6 inches high like Fintry's, it was about
3 feet high so that it cleared the waterline, and the top was clear Lexan
bolted on so that one could see any obstruction and unbolt an access
panel to reach in (probably with a stick) to clear any obstruction. One
drawback I see of a tall seachest like this is that it would compromise the
effectiveness of using a back-blast of seawater from the other sea chest
to clear an obstruction.

Using my philosophy of good engineering (carefully select everyone
else's good ideas and blend them together to create the perfect result)
my thinking right now is to fit 2 sea chests with each "sea chest" being in
fact a simple large through-hull like your Swan 57, with your rather clever
T arrangement and removable rodding-pipe as an emergency backup, but
with appropriate valves upstream of the strainer to enable back-flushing
through the inlet as the preferred method of clearing any blockage.

Does anyone see any significant problem or improvement for the above?

- Julian