Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian



Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy.
Polyurethanes are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ...that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Ooops? I gave away the last of my 404/414 so didn't have can to read. I was 99.9999% sure that 'epoxy' was not listed on the label. My apologies, Jim. Hope I didn't wreck your whole day...

Brian


"Jim Conlin" wrote in message ...
RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Jim Conlin wrote:

*RTFC!*

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies
its ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.


--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........
No doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top. Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414, it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
nk.net...
Jim Conlin wrote:

*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.


--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers

Brian -


have you tried "old fashion oil based/solvent based" 1 part primers in
comparison? Epoxy based primers are becoming more common, but even these
old "oil primers' work well under LPU coatings.

I'll have to get some 404/414 primer and do some tests too. Can we swop
some products?

paul
progressive epoxy polymers



Brian D wrote:

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top. Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414, it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...


Jim Conlin wrote:



*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.



--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers








--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Drive
Pittsfield NH 03263
10:30-3:30 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal

http://www.epoxyproducts.com
============================================

I've had LPU paints alligator alkyd (oil) paints. Only a few don't.

404/414 costs maybe $20/qt.
Paul , someone who was seriously in business could afford that.

"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...
Brian -


have you tried "old fashion oil based/solvent based" 1 part primers in
comparison? Epoxy based primers are becoming more common, but even these
old "oil primers' work well under LPU coatings.

I'll have to get some 404/414 primer and do some tests too. Can we swop
some products?

paul
progressive epoxy polymers



Brian D wrote:

You might be right, Paul, but there is a couple of key things about the
404/414 that's important. Whatever kind of epoxy is in it apparently
doesn't 'care' (chemically) about what kind of paint you put on top.
Plain
boat building epoxies that risk amines being on the surface (I forget the
proper name for the type ...it includes your no-blush I believe) often
prevent alkyd enamels from curing. Regardless of what's in the 404/414,
it
works and that's the bottom line. At least I haven't discovered a paint
that doesn't stick to it well. As the first guy pointed out, it can be
confusing if you read the label and assume it's for under the waterline
and
would waterproof the boat under the paint. The other thing that's nice
about the 404/414 is the high bodies and sandability. It has a LOT more
stuff in it than other so-called high-body primers and as a result works
much better for hiding minor sanding scratches and defects. It sands out
nice without requiring you to kill yourself for it.

So sure, call it a solvent filled cheap epoxy if you want ...but do you
have
an even cheaper solvent-filled cheap epoxy-based primer that works as
well
for primering under most any paint you want AND is high-build and fairs
the
boat nicely? Suggestions are welcome... I'd be happy to test your
product
side-by-side with the 404/414 and see if you're right.

Brian


"Paul Oman" wrote in message
ink.net...


Jim Conlin wrote:



*RTFC!*
The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies
its
ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone
The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica
The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin
system.
The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.



--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........ No
doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers








--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Drive
Pittsfield NH 03263
10:30-3:30 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal

http://www.epoxyproducts.com
============================================