I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

In the case of the 404/414, the can is labeled in bold print "Epoxy
Barrier-Kote".

In the case of Interlux's Epiglass epoxy, the ad in Boaters World catalog
describes it as a two-part, high build primer suitable as a coating where
gelcoat has been removed. I called Boaters World and they assured me the ad
was written by Interlux. I called Interlux's tech line and they said that
was not an appropriate application and didn't understand why it was
described as such.

Neither organization seemed much concerned with correcting matters when I
pointed out it would be a good idea. Boaters World, however, did refund the
purchase price of the Epiglass even though it was partly used.

BS

"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been described as applicable to things I later found out they were not
truly suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

To me, 'barrier coat' means a coating intended to be seriously impermable in
continuous immersion and an effective barrier against osmotic blistering. I
don't think that there's disagreement that 404/414 is an OK primer under LPU
paints for topsides and intermittent immersion. One thing it's not is
impermeable. It's so loaded with solvents that it's quite porous.
The best guide is the pamphlets published by the paint manufacturers. In
them, they do a pretty good job of descrtibing the 'systems' of coatings,
from bottom to top. They're not ambiguous.


"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And
the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

I guess the word 'epoxy' in the name can be taken to mean that it *is* epoxy
and is therefore waterproof (albeit not always true either) and works as a
barrier to water ...and it can be taken to mean that it provides a barrier
to the epoxy itself so that certain paint (or other primer) chemistries will
work on the boat. I always took it the second way, but that's probably
because I never keep a boat in the water ...I'm a trailer sailor and can't
afford the upkeep and annual hauling in/out fees that go along with keeping
a boat in the water. At least not yet ...grinz.

Brian



"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
To me, 'barrier coat' means a coating intended to be seriously impermable
in
continuous immersion and an effective barrier against osmotic blistering.
I
don't think that there's disagreement that 404/414 is an OK primer under
LPU
paints for topsides and intermittent immersion. One thing it's not is
impermeable. It's so loaded with solvents that it's quite porous.
The best guide is the pamphlets published by the paint manufacturers. In
them, they do a pretty good job of descrtibing the 'systems' of coatings,
from bottom to top. They're not ambiguous.


"Brian D" wrote in message
...

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label
to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could
apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't
want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Thank you all for your comments.

For the record, I ended up thinning it about 20% with alcohol. This
worked
well as far as thinning is concerned, but the alcohol apparently
evaporates too fast. It is impossible for the brush strokes to flow out
well. So -- more sanding. The good news is that it finds, and with
persistence, fills -- or at least coats -- about every pin hole in the
resin base. It dries quickly and appears to sand well. I am actually
using
it as a primer under Interprotect 2000 BTW.

This is the second time I have purchased Interlux products which have
been
described as applicable to things I later found out they were not truly
suitable for.

BS

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Just for the record, Jim, the can is labeled Epoxy Barrier-Kote. And
the
catalog describes is as suitable for above or below water
applications.
The directions also state that it must be thinned.

Thanks for your thoughts.

BS

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Interlux 404/414 is not a barrier coat. It's a sandable primer whose
function is to provide a tie coat between sime substrate and an
impervious
finish coat such as an LPU paint. If applied as directed, it's just
loaded
with expensive solvents and is consequently pretty porous. Useless
under
bottom paint. If you are using it as a primer under finish paint
and
not
under bottom paint, go for it. I'd try acetone. Let us know your
result.

"Robert or Karen Swarts" wrote in message
...
Can I successfully use acetone to thin epoxy barrier coats? I am
thinking
of
Interlux 404/414 in particular, but the question is also a general
one.

I am aware that there are proprietary products for this application,
but I
need to paint tomorrow morning, and the nearest dealer is about 60
miles
away.

Bob Swarts

Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian



Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy.
Polyurethanes are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ...that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Robert or Karen Swarts wrote:
In the case of the 404/414, the can is labeled in bold print "Epoxy
Barrier-Kote".

It seems that it should be labeled "Barrier Coat for Epoxy".

RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Ooops? I gave away the last of my 404/414 so didn't have can to read. I was 99.9999% sure that 'epoxy' was not listed on the label. My apologies, Jim. Hope I didn't wreck your whole day...

Brian


"Jim Conlin" wrote in message ...
RTFC!

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies its ingredients:
epoxy resin
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
polyamide resin
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific names, on the interlux web site.



"Brian D" wrote in message ...
Interlux Epoxy Barrier Kote 404/414 doesn't have any epoxy in it ....that's
the reason for this whole thread. It's a confusing label. It means that it
is a barrier to the epoxy on the boat so you can paint with the paint of
your choice without worrying about interaction with epoxy amines that didn't
get used in the epoxy cure reaction. The primer itself is not epoxy and
doesn't contain any ...just a bunch of high body stuff and stinky solvents.
It works quite well under a paint, both as something to protect the paint
from the epoxy AND as a defect-hiding high-build paint primer that sands and
finishes quite well.

Brian D



"Paul Oman" wrote in message
k.net...
Brian D wrote:

I'm curious ...I gave away my last bit of 404/414 so don't have a label to
read, but who's description was misleading? Interlux's? Or was the
description ambiguous instead? You know ...poorly written and could apply
equally well to more than one (conflicting) type of use? Have you called
the rep and told him about your experiences? Might save some newbies
headaches later on if the labels were clearer... Most companies won't want
you to be unhappy because a product was used for the wrong type of
application.

Brian


Hello All -

adding solvents to epoxy will decrease its physical properties but for a
hull coating that is OK. Epoxies are one of the very few coatings
suitable for constant immersion. Unlike polyester resin, which will let
water pass (hence boat blisters) epoxies provide a waterproof seal -
plain and simple.

epoxy primers, bond enhancers etc. are generally just solvent thinned
epoxy. Epoxies are a common primer under many other coatings. You can
use straight solvent free marine epoxies as a prime. Note that you
certainly would want to worry about amine blush with some epoxies,
especially if you are using them as a primer....

Awlgrip is a polyester polyurethane. Polyurethene's weakest property is
its bonding, hence usually used under a fresh coat of epoxy. Polyurethanes
are never recommended for immersion service, although I
wonder (and will soon be testing) 2 part polys bonded chemically with
uncured epoxy and put into immersion service. It may work, albeit no
one will officially so state.

PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.

Jim Conlin wrote:

*RTFC!*

The label on the can of Interlux 404 which is on my desk identifies
its ingredients:
*epoxy resin*
xylene
titanium dioxide
magnesium silicate
methyl isoamyl ketone

The can of 414 indicates:
*polyamide resin*
aromatic petroleum solvent
tri(dimethyllaminomethyl)phenol
methyl n-amyl ketone
silica

The two ingredients formatted bold are, together, an epoxy resin system.

The same ingredients are listed, by somewhat more technically specific
names, on the interlux web site.


--------------------

Yes - so it is just a solvent thinned, pigmented, cheap epoxy........
No doubt everyone pays big $$$ for them to add the solvent into an epoxy.


Paul Oman
progressive epoxy polymers