Jax,

This is going to be my last responce because it is pretty obvious that you
have no idea what you are talking about, twist my statements and make
rediculous assumptions.

First, A normal can of beer is 12 ounces. Not 16. Tall boys are no good
on boats because they get warm before you can drink them all.

Second, I am allowing 6 beers a day for a crew of 4. That is more than most
prudent skippers will allow. Especially with hard liquor sundowners and
night caps. :-) BTW, that 800 BTU buffer includes 400 BTUs for making
enough ice for those cocktails and 90% of the frozen provisions will be
frozen before they get to the boat. Now before you go saying that two
pounds of ice is not enough consider that a 8 oz cocktail glass will hold
about .2 pounds of ice so that is enough for 10 drinks.

Third, I should have mentioned that the design temperature used to calculate
my heat gain for the box is 40F and the freezer is 0F. That is good enough
to keep ice cream. Besides, with my belt size I don't need much ice cream.
OTOH, I don't wear speedos. ;-)

Now, as to refrigeration performance figures. We went through this two
years ago and I am not going to get sucked into another interminable debate
so I will leave it with the following statement which I have verified with
the chairman of the ASHRAE standards committee.. Performance
specifications, be they COP, EER or ASHRAE capacity are based the NET heat
removed. It does NOT include heat generated in the process.

You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice assuming the system is set up
do do nothing but freeze ice with a constant supply of water moving across
the plates so that the heat is removed efficiently. But it is more like 90
pounds. A BD50F at 3,000 RPM and a plate temperature of -5F has an ASHRAE
capacity rating of 166 Watts. Times 3.413 we get 566 BTUs/hour or about
13,000 BTUs/day. The current draw is 7.4 amps or 177 amp hours. That is a
COP of 1.87 and an EER of about 6.3. That is about the same as a modern
110VAC hermetic compressor.

You make the assumption that all compressor manufacturers are lying about
theyr specifications. If that were true no refrigeration designer would
ever be able to build a refrigerator that would work the way it was supposed
to. .

--.
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Rusty O wrote:

He also mentioned the foil faced air bubble plastic material. He said the
manufactuers of this product have not been able to prove that it has any
real 'R' value of any kind. The salesmen even suggested a good use would be
to stuff it in your shoes to keep your feet dry. He refuses to distribute
this product for these reasons.
The "foil faced air bubble products Do work in some applications. I have
a 200x65 ft building with a shingle roof and the bubble wrap product
underneath it, and it DOES keep the radiant heat from the sun off of the
roof sheathing (the temp on the inside of the sheathing is about 40deg f
below a neighboring roof without it. Having said that, it probably
wouldn't help a fridge unless you set it in the sun.

Rusty O




--
""War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing
is worth war is much worse."
John Stewart Mill


I strongly urge everyone reading this to check out WWW.anysoldier.us,
and support our troops with a letter, a package or a donation.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is. Lie
to yourself as to what that price is all you want, for you want the reefer and
you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, in the corporate world of ordinary finance you would have been sent to
the loading dock to see if it is raining outside.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Ignore the realities, because you want the reefer.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

Glenn, you want the reefer and you are going to pay whatever the price is.

From: "Glenn Ashmore"
Date: 11/24/2004 10:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: dv1pd.3558$wa1.2148@lakeread04

Jax,

This is going to be my last responce because it is pretty obvious that you
have no idea what you are talking about, twist my statements and make
rediculous assumptions.

First, A normal can of beer is 12 ounces. Not 16. Tall boys are no good
on boats because they get warm before you can drink them all.

Second, I am allowing 6 beers a day for a crew of 4. That is more than most
prudent skippers will allow. Especially with hard liquor sundowners and
night caps. :-) BTW, that 800 BTU buffer includes 400 BTUs for making
enough ice for those cocktails and 90% of the frozen provisions will be
frozen before they get to the boat. Now before you go saying that two
pounds of ice is not enough consider that a 8 oz cocktail glass will hold
about .2 pounds of ice so that is enough for 10 drinks.

Third, I should have mentioned that the design temperature used to calculate
my heat gain for the box is 40F and the freezer is 0F. That is good enough
to keep ice cream. Besides, with my belt size I don't need much ice cream.
OTOH, I don't wear speedos. ;-)

Now, as to refrigeration performance figures. We went through this two
years ago and I am not going to get sucked into another interminable debate
so I will leave it with the following statement which I have verified with
the chairman of the ASHRAE standards committee.. Performance
specifications, be they COP, EER or ASHRAE capacity are based the NET heat
removed. It does NOT include heat generated in the process.

You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice assuming the system is set up
do do nothing but freeze ice with a constant supply of water moving across
the plates so that the heat is removed efficiently. But it is more like 90
pounds. A BD50F at 3,000 RPM and a plate temperature of -5F has an ASHRAE
capacity rating of 166 Watts. Times 3.413 we get 566 BTUs/hour or about
13,000 BTUs/day. The current draw is 7.4 amps or 177 amp hours. That is a
COP of 1.87 and an EER of about 6.3. That is about the same as a modern
110VAC hermetic compressor.

You make the assumption that all compressor manufacturers are lying about
theyr specifications. If that were true no refrigeration designer would
ever be able to build a refrigerator that would work the way it was supposed
to. .

--.
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...

But it is more like 90
pounds.

Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to --------------- ANY
------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams __claims___
ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of ice
in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?

dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the cost
is. Whatever the cost is.

Jax, you still don't have a clue.

By now.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...

But it is more like 90
pounds.

Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to --------------- ANY
------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams
__claims___
ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of
ice
in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?

dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the
cost
is. Whatever the cost is.

maybe, maybe not. However, I do understand cost accounting, a term you never
heard of, let alone understand.

I also know what a BTU is, and know there is no frickin' way in hell *you* are
going to produce a pound of ice in 18 minutes in that expensive abortion you
are putting together.

glenn, you want the reefer whatever the cost is. Just admit it you don't care
if the cost is $10 a day or $30 a day. You want, therefore you spend.

Hate to tell you this, Glenn, but a cold brew in a 5 star shoreside bar is
cheaper than out of your reefer. but you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

complain all you want about my knowledege, glenn, but *you* would get tossed
from a corporate financial meeting before the first cup of coffee cooled to
drinking temp.

you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

enjoy, but stop claiming your reefer diety is the God of The Universe.

you want the reefer whatever the cost is.

just admit it and go on.


From: "Glenn Ashmore"
Date: 11/24/2004 8:10 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: kiapd.3605$wa1.1047@lakeread04

Jax, you still don't have a clue.

By now.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
You are almost correct on the 75 pounds of ice...

But it is more like 90
pounds.

Glenn, have you EVER actually talked to --------------- ANY
------------------------------ cruiser even in his wildest dreams
__claims___
ninety frickin' pounds of ice per day? How about making a single pound of
ice
in less than 4 hours? 8 hours? 16 hours? 24 hours?

dream on, Glenn, because you want the reefer and you will pay whatever the
cost
is. Whatever the cost is.

Jax, you still don't have a clue.


Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a reefer
system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.

That is so far off that I just have to reply. I am not doing this as a
rebuttal to your asinine comments but for the benefit of those lurkers who
might be interested in the thought process.

The TOTAL cost of my refrigeration system is a little under $4K including
the vacuum insulation, separate keel cooled compressors for the freezer and
refrigerator, custom made double sealed lids with solid surface tops and the
materials for the cabinet work. Under the worst case load it will consume
about 90 amp hours. My alternator produces 270 amps and the battery bank is
a little over 800 amp hours so the average charge time required for
refrigeration will be about 20 minutes assuming no output from the solar
panels.

If you want to consider ALL the cost of the batteries, alternators, 3 stage
regulator and solar panels as exclusively used for refrigeration add another
$3K. But that is not really fair because refrigeration is only 1/3 of my
energy budget. A fair figure for the total cost of my refrigeration system
is about $5K.

If I were really considering this project on a cost accounting basis I would
not own a boat in the first place but money in excess of that required to
survive comfortably is useless unless you can have some fun with it. But
lets give a little cost accounting a try and see what happens. To estimate
the real cost of the system we need to make some assumptions. First we
amortize the capital costs. Let's assume over an economic life of 10 years
at the end of which an additional $3,000 will be required to refit the
mechanical parts and vacuum panels. Assuming an average use of 120 days a
year that works out to about $4.40/day including opportunity cost of the
capital at 6%.

Now let's consider the operating costs. Two unshaded 150 watt solar panels
in the tropics should be expected to optimally produce about 160 amp hours
of charge. But things are never optimal so to be conservative we will
assume only 25% or 40 amp hours (that is average. Not every day.) so the
engine must provide the remaining 50 amp hours or about 12 minutes of run
time. From a separate calculation of engine expenses that includes capital
costs, overhauls, oil, general maintenance and fuel at $4/gallon over the
service live, that is about $1.20 ignoring the 5 gallons of water that will
be produced at the same time and the value of any forward progress the boat
makes.. For good measure, lets throw in another $360/year reserve for
repairs. So the total cost of the system can be conservatively estimated at
about $6.60/day. Obviously not as good as the $.60 to $1.00 a day that a
home refrigerator cost but about the middle of the cost range for marine
refrigeration.

For comparison, a simple $300 foam insulated ice box of similar capacity
will require about 3,600 BTUs a day or 25 pounds of ice. The current price
of a 10 lb. bag of ice in the Bahamas and Virgin Islands is $2.50 and
considerably higher in Martinique, St. Martin and other Caribbean islands.
That works out to about $6.25 a day with no freezer and not including the
value of lost personal time constantly having to get more ice.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Jax, you still don't have a clue.


Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a
reefer
system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.

like I said, Glenn, in the world of corporate finance you would be asked to go
to the loading dock to see if it is raining outside. You grasp of the
principles of cost accounting is too weak to even be considered minimal.

you want the reefer at whatever cost, and you will force fit the cost figures
into your planned budget no matter what the reality.

"20 frickin' minutes a day engine runtime" to maintain your reefer cool (not
cold, but cool)? You have to be kidding. Even those who are "out there" are
CLAIMING 30 minutes to an hour **twice** a day. And just a side note, Glenn,
the cruisers anchored around those "I gotta have ice cubes in my drinks" reefer
boats claim the assholes run their engines far more like a hour and a half in
the morning, then start their engines in the afternoon and go ashore (for a
couple of cold, not cool, ones) for 2-1/2 to 3 hours.

btw, I notice you _claim_ that your 90 amps per day for your planned reefer is
only 1/3 of your total energy budget. In other words, you are currently
budgeted for nearly ***three frickin' hundred amps*** PER DAY!! That is you
_budget_, which if you are like most people is about one half or less than what
you will really use per day.

Glenn, you want your reefer and will get it whatever the cost. Frankly, I feel
cold, not cool, iced drinks ashore is one hell of a lot cheaper.

From: "Glenn Ashmore"
Date: 11/24/2004 10:50 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: 7Ecpd.3629$wa1.1178@lakeread04

That is so far off that I just have to reply. I am not doing this as a
rebuttal to your asinine comments but for the benefit of those lurkers who
might be interested in the thought process.

The TOTAL cost of my refrigeration system is a little under $4K including
the vacuum insulation, separate keel cooled compressors for the freezer and
refrigerator, custom made double sealed lids with solid surface tops and the
materials for the cabinet work. Under the worst case load it will consume
about 90 amp hours. My alternator produces 270 amps and the battery bank is
a little over 800 amp hours so the average charge time required for
refrigeration will be about 20 minutes assuming no output from the solar
panels.

If you want to consider ALL the cost of the batteries, alternators, 3 stage
regulator and solar panels as exclusively used for refrigeration add another
$3K. But that is not really fair because refrigeration is only 1/3 of my
energy budget. A fair figure for the total cost of my refrigeration system
is about $5K.

If I were really considering this project on a cost accounting basis I would
not own a boat in the first place but money in excess of that required to
survive comfortably is useless unless you can have some fun with it. But
lets give a little cost accounting a try and see what happens. To estimate
the real cost of the system we need to make some assumptions. First we
amortize the capital costs. Let's assume over an economic life of 10 years
at the end of which an additional $3,000 will be required to refit the
mechanical parts and vacuum panels. Assuming an average use of 120 days a
year that works out to about $4.40/day including opportunity cost of the
capital at 6%.

Now let's consider the operating costs. Two unshaded 150 watt solar panels
in the tropics should be expected to optimally produce about 160 amp hours
of charge. But things are never optimal so to be conservative we will
assume only 25% or 40 amp hours (that is average. Not every day.) so the
engine must provide the remaining 50 amp hours or about 12 minutes of run
time. From a separate calculation of engine expenses that includes capital
costs, overhauls, oil, general maintenance and fuel at $4/gallon over the
service live, that is about $1.20 ignoring the 5 gallons of water that will
be produced at the same time and the value of any forward progress the boat
makes.. For good measure, lets throw in another $360/year reserve for
repairs. So the total cost of the system can be conservatively estimated at
about $6.60/day. Obviously not as good as the $.60 to $1.00 a day that a
home refrigerator cost but about the middle of the cost range for marine
refrigeration.

For comparison, a simple $300 foam insulated ice box of similar capacity
will require about 3,600 BTUs a day or 25 pounds of ice. The current price
of a 10 lb. bag of ice in the Bahamas and Virgin Islands is $2.50 and
considerably higher in Martinique, St. Martin and other Caribbean islands.
That works out to about $6.25 a day with no freezer and not including the
value of lost personal time constantly having to get more ice.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
Jax, you still don't have a clue.


Really, Glenn? But I am not the one with $18,000 dollars stuck into a
reefer
system that requires me to run the engine for three hours a day.

Jax says:

like I said, Glenn, in the world of corporate finance you would be asked to
go
to the loading dock to see if it is raining outside.

Which may be why he isn't in it. God knows it would bore me to tears, and I
couldn't be less interested in it.

you are currently
budgeted for nearly ***three frickin' hundred amps*** PER DAY!!

I'd have thought with your penchant for being able to quote definitions for
units so readly that you would have realised that it's AMP-HOURS, not amps.



Frankly, I feel
cold, not cool, iced drinks ashore is one hell of a lot cheaper.

That probably would suit Glenn very well, as it keeps you (and yahoos like you)
out of the harbour more.

Steve