I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee
board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency?

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:21:30 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee
board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency?


Do you know how to sail a boat designed to sail to windward? If you
understand how that works you might have a chance.

But, no matter what you do, it will never equal a purpose-designed
sailboat of any competence. It is like asking a steam shovel to plaw a
corn field.


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC


We have achieved faith-based science,
faith-based economics, faith-based law
enforcement, and faith-based missile
defense.
What's next? Faith-based air traffic control?

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

(This may be a repost on some hosts which do not act on delete requests as
I accidentally hit the post key while making a change to the text. It's
not a big change and won't make much of a difference.)

I've found that putting the leeboard under the rear edge (leech) of the
sail gives good ballance on narrow rudderless sailboats. you can look at
the rigs on my home made boats at www.ncf.ca/~ag384/Boats.htm. I
experimented on my Dogskiff with a keel screwed to the skids on the bottom
of the boat. Was able to reposition this keel until I got good balance.
that was under the leech. I find these small boats sensitive to sail
balance. I use daggerboards which it's a good idea to install on an angle
(as shown in the photos). It's also important where the crew sits in the
boat. I've screwed a small spirit level to the gunwale on the smallest
boat (Loonie) so I can tell when it's sailing level.

raising and lowering the daggerboards and shifting my weight around makes
a big difference to sail and hull balance. on the Dogskiff with the
original sail under certain conditions I can raise the daggerboard 1/3 of
the way up and get the boat to tack on its own without rudder or paddle.

note that a flat bottom boat it will slide off to leeward when tacking.
you have to heel the boat and let out the sail to get it to round up onto
the other tack. flat bottom boats are somewhat prone to capsizing when
tacking in a gust with the sail pulled in and the boat falling off to
leeward. it helps when tacking to move your weight forward. that was the
technique used in the rudderless St lawrence skiff sailing races. when
taking the dogskiff when it is making way I reach forward with the paddle
on the lee sied and use a bow pry, when it is not making way I reach
forward with the paddle tucked under my armpit and use a bow draw. I only
have to use teh paddle to tack.

it takes a while to learn to sail without a rudder but I find my boats to
be very responsive. to turn upwind let out sail and heel the boat to
leeward, moving your weight forward it need be. to turn to leeward pull
the sail in and keep the boat flat, moving your weight aft if need be.
there was a book published in the 1800's telling of a cruise among the
Carribean Islands on a rudderless sailing canoe.

you can move up to a bigger sail on the boat if you ever want. 60 sq ft would
not be too big.

"Ron" ) writes:
I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee
board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency?





--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

All of my advice is free, and worth what you paid for it. I do not
know your boat, your sail, your experience or intentions. I also have
no idea of the wind, water etc conditions you will be working with.

IMO, rudderless sailing of any craft is an art.

You have been effectively using your paddle as a rudder.

The rudders of _most_ sailing craft will have some "weather helm" (you
need to pull the tiller toward the wind, so as to make the boat head
away from the wind), and this is considered a safety factor. Let the
rudder go (get bashed on the head by the boom?) and the boat simply
heads up and stops.

But the helm should not be excessive. That is to say it should be
feelable, but not painful or uncomfortable to use.

Obviously, the further the rudder is away from the centre of actions
of the craft, the less effort will be required of the rudder to guide
the boat against forces. The (back most commonly) end of the boat is
best, but this is not always so.

There are boats that use the leeboard/centreboard position, mast step
position or rake, and sail attitude to balance the boat. As I said,
it's an art. The _principles_ are simple. Put very basically, leeboard
aft, boat downwind. Sail _effort_ aft, boat upwind. Move either, or
the leeboard forward of the Centre of Effort of the sail, and you
alter everything...depending on the boat's own "keel" effect (not much
in a flat bottomed, round-chined canoe).

But again, be aware that:
(a) the helm can alter drastically as you alter your sail's
relationship to the wind and to the craft
- have you done any other sailing in a predesigned craft?
* if not, at least study the basic principles of sailing.
* One of the commonest reasons for pulling upwind is to have the
main sail sheeted home way too tight, especially in boats with no jib.
This moves the CofE back, and heads the boat up. But naturally, having
the sail out one side of the boat will always pull it one way....back
to the rudder, or a lot of fiddling with leeboard position.

(b) a "perfectly balanced" boat could keep sailing if you fell
overboard. Having said that, in a canoe even you own weight will have
a possible drastic efect on the actions of the craft. Moving weight
fore or aft, or side to side, could completely alter the dynamics of
the boat.

I would _experiment _ with giving the boat _slight_ weather helm, then
look at a rudder, or accept using the paddle as one.

It is rare to have a boat set up to sail _down_wind by itself. If you
are sailing high, and something happens, the boat would fall away, and
in the process go through the maximum power band, then simply sail
away down wind, sail full of air. In many light boats (cats and
_maybe_ canoes), _deliberately_ sailing downwind under duress is a
good idea, because (the theory goes) you can accelerate fast enough to
relieve pressure on the craft. If you are moving fast, and head
upwind, you can increase the apparent wind. But having headed
downwind, you can then be on the "Nantucket Sleighride" G.

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm



************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.

William R. Watt ) writes:

....when
taking the dogskiff when it is making way I reach forward with the paddle
on the lee sied and use a bow pry, when it is not making way I reach
forward with the paddle tucked under my armpit and use a bow draw.

second part should read "when it is not making SUFFICIENT way I reach
forward ON THE WINDWARD SIDE with the paddle tucked under my armpit and
use a bow draw."

sorry about that


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

I did quite a bit of sailing in a sportspal canoe as a teenager. The
factory sailing kit used a sea snark sail the mast mounted through the
front deck only about a foot from the bow. The leeboards attached to
the centre thwart and were made of 1"x6" about 3'long and were tapered
at the front. The rudder was a canoe paddle with an oarlock that set
into a hole at the end of the outboard motor mount. This set up would
point into the wind quite well and was reasonably fast. I had a lot of
fun with it and learned most of what I know about sailing in this boat
(wich isn't much )