I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to
tack.
a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just
used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to
compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key.

put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard
back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be
concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper.
when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start
with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the
centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference.
anything less wasn't noticeable.

there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe
sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find
it eventually.
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:28:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?


Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

"Ron" ) writes:
I'm getting it.

On a 16 1/2 foot canoe I could put the sail 2 -5 feet from the bow and then
try to balance it by moving the leeboard fore or aft. I hope to sail with
camping gear or more likely, kids. What might be the effects of weight in
the canoe and sail placement?

you may already know that when two people are paddling a canoe, especailly
an empty one, the weight is concentrated at the ends. it's good for
steering but it is not the best weight distribution. when one person is
paddling an empty canoe he or she sits in the centre. this is a better
weight distribution as it leave the ends empty and bouyant. as more weight
is added, be it kids or cargo, keeping the weight centralized would also
be best for sailing. steering under sail using sail balance with or
without a rudder does not require sitting near the end.

as can be seen in photos on my website I sit on the bottom and use a
backrest when sailing. I pulled a back muscle trying to sail sitting on
the bottom without a backrest. the backrest is positioned so my weight is
centralized in the boat. I'd sail for a while without a backrest until
body position for good balance is known. on the 7.5 ft boat the backrest
is a permanent aft deck. on the 11.5 ft boat the backrest is removable and
rotates to change the angle. TF Jones uses a rope and canvas backrest on
his Tuckahoe 12 narrow sailiboat which he sails sitting on the bottom.
sitting on the bottom (on a cushion) keeps the weight low and is less
tiring than sitting up and moving one's weight around all the time to
compensate for the sail. I don't have enough sail on my boats to sit out
on the gunwale but that is how to get more speed and excitement out of the
sailing if desired. I've seen photos of canoe sailors sitting out over the
side just like other small boat sailors.

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P.C. Ford ) writes:

Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races.
They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the
races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward
and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern
shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull.


Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig
in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the
simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a
person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to
read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail
due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a
nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where
paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO.

I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much
new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I
do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power.
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"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

P.C. Ford ) writes:

Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe.
With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look
at that".

I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races.
They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the
races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward
and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern
shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull.

So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This
is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members
and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a
crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is
not going to be a lost art.


Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig
in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the
simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a
person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to
read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail
due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a
nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where
paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO.

I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much
new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I
do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power.

My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out
exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough
(going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the
excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake
and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail
upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little
Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and
hard paddling) around here.

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On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:40:24 -0400, "Ron" wrote:


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

P.C. Ford ) writes:

Very important. With such a tiny draft movement with the boat can even
make the boat come about. A traditional boat in the Northeast,
(Thousand Islands area, I'm spacing the name.) was sailed without a
rudder. Coming about was accomplished by movement within the boat.

So loading the canoe and moving the people is part of sailing the canoe.
With kids I've learned you lean one way and point the other as you say "look
at that".

I've seen photos and a description of the annual St Lawrence skiff races.
They were long narrow rowing boats with auxilliary sails. During the
races the boat were tacked without rudder or paddle by heeling to leeward
and moving forward to depress the bow which I guess might lift the stern
shortening the waterline length to ease pivoting the hull.

So loading involves leaving room to move yourself or others to steer. This
is getting more interesting all the time. The canoe has three cross members
and two fixed seats (not used when sailing). I like the idea of having a
crew to help steer. I'm going to teach a whole new generation because it is
not going to be a lost art.


Good luck with your experiments. Sailing canoes were very popular in
the 19th century. Don't understand why they are not more popular now.
Myself, I would rather sail than paddle!!

I appreciate the variety sailing adds to a canoe. Carrying a sailing rig
in a boat which is portaged is a nuisance which I try to overcome with the
simplest most compact removable rig I can dream up. Paddling allows a
person to look around which is nice along the shore and on rivers, and to
read and run fast water. Sailing requires constant attention to the sail
due to changing strength and direction of the wind. Playing the wind is a
nice change from paddling and it is more insteresting on open water where
paddling in a wind is both tiring and boring. A terrific combination IMHO.

I find that going out on the same water most of the time I don't see much
new and interesting along the shore and tend to do more sailing. However I
do like to explore creeks and rivers under paddle power.

My biggest issue is getting the time and interest of the kids to go out
exploring. I've used food and try to make it fun but competition is tough
(going to the YMCA or local amusement park instead). I hope that the
excitement of sailing will get them. We got towed upwind on our local lake
and they enjoyed that but I saw it as a failure of my ability to sail
upwind, hence all my questions. We do paddle or float down the Little
Miami River. We don't have two way rivers (without alot of tracking and
hard paddling) around here.

There is a huge difference between upwond sailing in a
purpose-designed sailboat and an afterthought sailing rig on a boat
designed for something else. To be fair to these kids, you must expose
them to real sailboats, which doesn't mean big and expensive.

Lasers, 420s, Larks, and Flying Juniors are real sailboats.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Religious wisdom is to wisdom as military music is to music."

Rodney Myrvaagnes ) writes:

There is a huge difference between upwond sailing in a
purpose-designed sailboat and an afterthought sailing rig on a boat
designed for something else. To be fair to these kids, you must expose
them to real sailboats, which doesn't mean big and expensive.

Lasers, 420s, Larks, and Flying Juniors are real sailboats.

I'll certainly have to take exception to that interjection. Coincidentaly
today I had the first opportunity to sail the Dogskiff alongside a "real"
sailboat, a Siren 17, one of those small cabin cruisers. The Dogskiff
pointed higher and made no more leeway.

Besides, a Laser is not a BOAT. It's a plastic board with a sail stuck on it.
A boat is something you sit IN, not ON.

In sailing terminology any double ender is a "canoe" hull. A sailing canoe
is just as much a sailboat as any other, and a much better performer than
some, like those dumpy New England catboats.

Harumph.

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On 2 Sep 2004 00:18:03 GMT, (William R.
Watt) wrote:

In sailing terminology any double ender is a "canoe" hull. A sailing canoe
is just as much a sailboat as any other, and a much better performer than
some, like those dumpy New England catboats.

Harumph.

=============================

Harumph indeed. The first vessel I ever sailed (or sailed on) was a
13 ft aluminum canoe with a nicely constructed sailing rig, mahogany
leeboards and a rudder with control lines. To me, at age 13, it was
the finest boat in the world and whetted my appetite for bigger and
better things. I knew next to nothing about sailing when I started.
Common sense told me that it was impossible to sail into the wind so I
asked someone more experienced how it was done. He explained that you
could only sail at an angle to the wind and that the leeboards would
keep the canoe from sliding sideways. After pondering that for a few
seconds I asked how you go to where the wind was blowing from. The
reply was that you had to zig zag. That sort of made sense so off I
went with that as my only sailing lesson. It was great, and the canoe
and I had many adventures that summer on Lake Ontario.

William R. Watt wrote:
In sailing terminology any double ender is a "canoe" hull.

No it isn't. If it were, then why would we need both terms? I think
you're confused by the fact that *some* double enders are said to have
"canoe sterns."



... A sailing canoe
is just as much a sailboat as any other, and a much better performer than
some,

You mean like the IC class canoes? Yep they are pretty zippy. But I got
the idea you were not talking about anything resembling those boats.

.... like those dumpy New England catboats.

Harumph.

Some New England catboats are dumpy & slow. Many are not. You should get
out more.

In the immortal words of Rudyard Kipling, "Harumph, yourself."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 2 Sep 2004 00:18:03 GMT, (William R.
Watt) vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

crap. where do catamarans fit?

Sorry. make inflammatory remarks. get flamed.

A boat is something you sit IN, not ON.

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the snappy ones are the best