On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, Ron wrote:

[re-arranged text to appear in chronological order]
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?

I can't say from experience that a proper foil-shaped leeboard would make
a big difference, but from what I understand of aero- and hydrodynamic
theory, which may not be much, it could make a big difference under some
circumstances.

In order for a leeboard to function, it has to provide lift. It can only
provide lift if it has an angle of attack. Put another way, when the
boat experiences a force to leeward, there will always be a little bit
of slippage. If you consider the slippage, then it is clear that the water
is flowing over the leeboard at an angle. This angle is called the angle
of attack.

The aerodynamics of a flat-plate (which is what your leeboard is, AFAICS)
are OK as long as the angle of attack is very small (i.e., the boat
doesn't make much leeway), but they rapidly go to pot when there is a
large angle of attack. By "go to pot" I mean that the drag forces become
very large, which will keep you from making good headway.

I think it is a good idea to get the boat more or less balanced first,
then try playing with a foiled leeboard if you desire.

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

It sounds as though you are steering with a paddle as a rudder, which
should work fine once you get the boat more balanced. (I base this on
another poster's testimony, not on personal experience!)

Good luck!

--Mac

Mac ) writes:

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail
si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe
has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more
wouldn't hurt.

a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round
off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when
using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave the
middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street
signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or
daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe
60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast.

if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as
wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat or
lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral
resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped
right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more
leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight line.

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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply.....
************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.

I just got back from sailing the canoe thru East Harbor (Ohio State Park)
and into Lake Erie with a great south wind (I parked my bike at the beach
and rode it into the wind to get my car). I moved the sail and leeboard
forward each time I took it out and each time it improved windward sailing.
I did keep weight forward windward and probably sheeted too tight but had a
great "Nantucket Sleighride" moving aft with the wind. Still lots of
weather helm to the point of no time to eat a sandwich but in a gust it was
exciting. I plan on rigging a rudder but still want to understand the
balance. I do have very limited experience in a Lazer but right now I
prefer the challenge of the canoe.
Thanks for your advice
"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply.....
************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.

Thanks for the info. The Hardboard siding leeboard is not holding up after
a trip to East Harbor (Ohio state park) The board is twisted and I really
had to work to get the boat moving forward into the wind at times. It
wanted to slip sideways or worse backwards untill I turned with the paddle.
once moving I did better.
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

Mac ) writes:

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like
the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you
can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

1 sq ft in the water for evey 40-50 sq ft of sail. since his current sail
si 44 sq ft that means 1 sq ft of leeboard under the water. since a canoe
has little lateral resistance compared to a sialign dingy a bit more
wouldn't hurt.

a plywood or lumber or metal plate leeboard or daggerboard is fine. round
off the leading edge and leave a 1/8" flat on the trailing edge. when
using plywood I cover the leading and trailing edge with resin and leave
the
middle ply on the trailing edge flat. They sell used aluminum street
signs locally for $5 and I've been tempted to try one as a leeboard or
daggerboard. crusing sailing canoes in the late 1800's had removeabe
60 lb metal plate centreboards for lateral resistance and balast.

if the mast is stepped right at the bow it will depress the bow more as
wind speed increases. all that means is you have to move back in the boat
or
lower the leeboard or daggerboard to compensate for the greater lateral
resistance in the bow. I accidentally put my Loonie with it's mast stepped
right at the bow out of balance by moving the backrest aft to give me more
leg room. I now have to slouch to keep the boat sailing in a straight
line.

--
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On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what
you want to hear
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.

Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear.
I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.
I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.
It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.
I do appreciate all the advice. I kind of thought I was learning on this
trip so I might be able to ask better questions. But if you think I still
need to learn more, I'll tell my wife I need to go away again. She'll
probably would agree, in theory.

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 22:21:03 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

You appear to (a) know very little about sailing (b) hear only what
you want to hear
************************************************** ***
I have decided that I should not be offended by
anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's
good, anyway.

"Ron" ) writes:
Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of what I
hear.

Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced
sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have
to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat.

I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.

I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.

It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides curve
in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done
on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes
them more effective. His website is probably still active although he
hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now.

It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.

sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on
the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the
bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle
at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more
control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat
to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about
sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to
rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like
a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll
is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under
the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the
sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail
for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong
winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on
a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's
tyvek sail on my website.

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when the sail is balanced you will not need to use the paddle except to tack.
a rudder won't help. on a ballance rig the rudder is almost neutral, just
used to turn the boat. on an unbalanced boat using the rudder to
compensate just turns the rudder into a drag. sail balance is the key.

put the mast where it's most convenient in the boat and move the leeboard
back more in relation to the mast than what you have now. don't be
concerned about moving the leeboard back more than you'd think proper.
when you get excessive lee helm it's time to move it forward. I'd start
with the leeboard under the back edge of the sail. I found moving the
centre of lateral resistance six inches on the Dogskiff made a difference.
anything less wasn't noticeable.

there is an area for the leeboard relative to the mast where your canoe
sailing rig is be in balance. the canoe is only 18 ft long. you will find
it eventually.
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Thanks for the info and more important, the encouragement to keep working at
a silly thing like using everything you know to do the best you can.

I don't have tumblehome but could angle the board regardless. I'll probably
wait to try that as it involves changes to the hardware.

I did keep the sheet in my hand and dumped wind (and almost alittle more
during an accidental gybe in the channel leading out into lake Erie). I
did'nt experience "death roll" but mostly excessive weather helm. I'll
search for your DuckWorks article.

Again, thanks.

"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Ron" ) writes:
Because I know (a) very little I can only (b) understand a little of
what I
hear.

Rudderless sailing is not common. It would be a challenge for experienced
sailors. Keep at it and you will have a rare skill. It's neat not to have
to lug a rudder and tiller around for a cartop or portaged boat.

I just got back from sailing this rig and I'm trying to make sense of
all
the stuff that happens. I didn't get to read all these great messages
before I went.

I did sheet it in tight and often lost momentum and had to turn off the
wind
and/or paddle to get moving again. Raking the leeboard back seemed to
help
to. It seems I may have too big of a poorly shaped leeboard.

It might be possible to take advantage of tumblehome (where the sides
curve
in at the top on some canoes) to angle the leeboard out a bit as is done
on the oringinal Dutch sailing barges. Barend Migchelsen claims it makes
them more effective. His website is probably still active although he
hasn't posted in this newsgroup for over a year now.

It was a blast sailing downwind and moving back made the paddle more
effective but I still thought I might break a paddle.

sounds like excessive weather helm (broaching). It was a big problem on
the Blue Canoe I made out of plastic barrels. The sail was rigth at the
bow of that narrow boat and it had no lateral resistance except the paddle
at the stern. Try letting the sail out to dump wind - less power, more
control. Always have to be ready to let the sail run out on a small boat
to avoid loss off control to the wind. There's not a lot written about
sailing narrow boats like canoes. A sail with a mast sleeve can be free to
rotate right around the mast. The sail can be let out before the mast like
a spinnaker. That way broaching and "death roll" are avoided. Death roll
is where the boat starts rocking uncontrollably from side to side under
the influence of the sail downwind but it can be controlled by letting the
sail go forward and dumping wind. There is still lots of wind in the sail
for an exicting ride. I've been able to sail my small boats in strong
winds that way. I wrote an article about it for DuckWorks. I'm working on
a larger version of a rotating sprit sail for small boats, this season's
tyvek sail on my website.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned