I'm having trouble setting up my canoe to sail into the wind using a lee
board. Can a canoe do this with any efficiency?

Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, "Ron" wrote:

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

I did quite a bit of sailing in a sportspal canoe as a teenager. The
factory sailing kit used a sea snark sail the mast mounted through the
front deck only about a foot from the bow. The leeboards attached to
the centre thwart and were made of 1"x6" about 3'long and were tapered
at the front. The rudder was a canoe paddle with an oarlock that set
into a hole at the end of the outboard motor mount. This set up would
point into the wind quite well and was reasonably fast. I had a lot of
fun with it and learned most of what I know about sailing in this boat
(wich isn't much )

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 05:18:01 -0400, Ron wrote:

[re-arranged text to appear in chronological order]
"Mac" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, Ron wrote:

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a
question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm

[top-posting fixed]

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard
about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight
even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not
steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.


What you describe is called weather helm. Two things contribute to it:
center of pressure on sail too far aft (compared to leeboard), or too much
heel.

So, move your leeboard aft, or your sail forward, or try to keep the boat
more upright.

Oh, also do you have a rudder? A rudder would help if you don't have one.

Also, your leeboard will probably work much better if it is faired into a
hydrodynamic shape. At least in theory. I don't have any experience with
the type of leeboard you describe.

--Mac

I have been moving the sail forward and that has helped. I will try moving
it even more. The boat is not really heeling much as the sail is small.
The leeboard is just a piece of 3/4" hardboard siding. Would a better
shaped board make a significant difference?

I can't say from experience that a proper foil-shaped leeboard would make
a big difference, but from what I understand of aero- and hydrodynamic
theory, which may not be much, it could make a big difference under some
circumstances.

In order for a leeboard to function, it has to provide lift. It can only
provide lift if it has an angle of attack. Put another way, when the
boat experiences a force to leeward, there will always be a little bit
of slippage. If you consider the slippage, then it is clear that the water
is flowing over the leeboard at an angle. This angle is called the angle
of attack.

The aerodynamics of a flat-plate (which is what your leeboard is, AFAICS)
are OK as long as the angle of attack is very small (i.e., the boat
doesn't make much leeway), but they rapidly go to pot when there is a
large angle of attack. By "go to pot" I mean that the drag forces become
very large, which will keep you from making good headway.

I think it is a good idea to get the boat more or less balanced first,
then try playing with a foiled leeboard if you desire.

Another variable with the leeboard is size. I'm not really sure what a
good ratio is of sail area to leeboard area, but I don't think your
leeboard is too small, off the top of my head. Still if you feel like the
boat is slipping to leeward almost as fast as it is going forward, you can
try a leeboard with more surface area.

It sounds as though you are steering with a paddle as a rudder, which
should work fine once you get the boat more balanced. (I base this on
another poster's testimony, not on personal experience!)

Good luck!

--Mac

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:18:49 -0400, "Ron"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

All of my advice is free, and worth what you paid for it. I do not
know your boat, your sail, your experience or intentions. I also have
no idea of the wind, water etc conditions you will be working with.

IMO, rudderless sailing of any craft is an art.

You have been effectively using your paddle as a rudder.

The rudders of _most_ sailing craft will have some "weather helm" (you
need to pull the tiller toward the wind, so as to make the boat head
away from the wind), and this is considered a safety factor. Let the
rudder go (get bashed on the head by the boom?) and the boat simply
heads up and stops.

But the helm should not be excessive. That is to say it should be
feelable, but not painful or uncomfortable to use.

Obviously, the further the rudder is away from the centre of actions
of the craft, the less effort will be required of the rudder to guide
the boat against forces. The (back most commonly) end of the boat is
best, but this is not always so.

There are boats that use the leeboard/centreboard position, mast step
position or rake, and sail attitude to balance the boat. As I said,
it's an art. The _principles_ are simple. Put very basically, leeboard
aft, boat downwind. Sail _effort_ aft, boat upwind. Move either, or
the leeboard forward of the Centre of Effort of the sail, and you
alter everything...depending on the boat's own "keel" effect (not much
in a flat bottomed, round-chined canoe).

But again, be aware that:
(a) the helm can alter drastically as you alter your sail's
relationship to the wind and to the craft
- have you done any other sailing in a predesigned craft?
* if not, at least study the basic principles of sailing.
* One of the commonest reasons for pulling upwind is to have the
main sail sheeted home way too tight, especially in boats with no jib.
This moves the CofE back, and heads the boat up. But naturally, having
the sail out one side of the boat will always pull it one way....back
to the rudder, or a lot of fiddling with leeboard position.

(b) a "perfectly balanced" boat could keep sailing if you fell
overboard. Having said that, in a canoe even you own weight will have
a possible drastic efect on the actions of the craft. Moving weight
fore or aft, or side to side, could completely alter the dynamics of
the boat.

I would _experiment _ with giving the boat _slight_ weather helm, then
look at a rudder, or accept using the paddle as one.

It is rare to have a boat set up to sail _down_wind by itself. If you
are sailing high, and something happens, the boat would fall away, and
in the process go through the maximum power band, then simply sail
away down wind, sail full of air. In many light boats (cats and
_maybe_ canoes), _deliberately_ sailing downwind under duress is a
good idea, because (the theory goes) you can accelerate fast enough to
relieve pressure on the craft. If you are moving fast, and head
upwind, you can increase the apparent wind. But having headed
downwind, you can then be on the "Nantucket Sleighride" G.

It's a 161/2 foot Appleby aluminum flat bottom canoe with a 3/4 keel. I
have been setting the sail about 5' from the front and the leeboard about 2'
behind. I need to use a paddle strongly on the lee side to go straight even
down wind. If I don't use the paddle i turn into the wind.
I have to admit I had it loaded with five kids and the wind was not steady
the last time we sailed. But even by myself I have had trouble into the
wind. I clamp on the mast step and leeboard (10" by 3/4" plywood with
about 3' in the lake.) The sail is about 44 square feet.

"Stephen Baker" wrote in message
...
Ron,
Maybe some hints as to what your canoe does would help. Is it a question
of
balance? Will it simply not move to windward at all?

Give us a hint. ;-)

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/pr...cbweb/home.htm



************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply.....
************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.

I just got back from sailing the canoe thru East Harbor (Ohio State Park)
and into Lake Erie with a great south wind (I parked my bike at the beach
and rode it into the wind to get my car). I moved the sail and leeboard
forward each time I took it out and each time it improved windward sailing.
I did keep weight forward windward and probably sheeted too tight but had a
great "Nantucket Sleighride" moving aft with the wind. Still lots of
weather helm to the point of no time to eat a sandwich but in a gust it was
exciting. I plan on rigging a rudder but still want to understand the
balance. I do have very limited experience in a Lazer but right now I
prefer the challenge of the canoe.
Thanks for your advice
"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:52 +0800, Old Nick
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Well _I_ thought ot was an OK reply.....
************************************************** ***
Marriage. Where two people decide to get together so
that neither of them can do what they want to because
of the other one.