Before proper gun control is instituted.....or are you really that
afraid of everything?

Yes lets blame the gun. it's the guns fault those people are dead,
not the person who knowingly killed them. Nope if holding that gun
was illegal he would have never done it I mean KILLING people isn't
illegal or anything. Plus it's always a good idea to restrict the
freedoms of people out of fear and control. It really doen't help
make people safer just gives that illusion. Do you know who were huge
supporters of gun control? Hitler, Stalin, Polpot and Mussilini. The
people thought just like you, that it would make them safer and give
them a better more civilized country. But that's somehow different.
Robbing you of freedoms is okay if the people are to stupid to realize
it like in your country. Most Americans are to and that really
bothers me. You shouldn't have to justify the desire to own a gun.
You shouldn't have to justify anything here that does not harm
others. My gun has never killed or harmed another person. I own it
legally and I shouldn't have to tell you why. I own many things that
I don't "need" but i still have them. I have some kitchen knives that
could kill someone but I don't have to register those.

Oh and byt he way assult rifles are illegal. The definition of an
assault rifle keeps changing bbut any fully automatic machine gun has
been illegal since 1934 here. To me that's more than enough
regulation but sadly there are plenty of other laws. The liberal
dip****s don't care about helping people they only care about passing
useless laws to make it look like they are doing something important
when they are doing nothing. In California, the gun control laws are
aimed at the apperance of the gun. They don't want someone to be shot
with something that looks scary. In the mean tim ethey are making
prison sentences shorter and letting a lot more murderers go free.
Yep it's the guns fault not the person that did the act. hey maybe
gun is out robbing a bank right now without me even knowing it.

In article .com,
Bill wrote:
Before proper gun control is instituted.....or are you really that
afraid of everything?

Yes lets blame the gun. it's the guns fault those people are dead,

Not blaming the gun any more than the automobile. I'm advocating what
the majority of Americans want... a safer enviroment.

not the person who knowingly killed them. Nope if holding that gun

Hate to tell you, but he probably had mental problems. Are you
advocating locking those people up before they do anything?

legally and I shouldn't have to tell you why. I own many things that
I don't "need" but i still have them. I have some kitchen knives that
could kill someone but I don't have to register those.

Tell me why?? That's not what you do when you register your gun or you
need to supply ID and wait a couple of weeks while the authorities
verify you are who you say you are and that you are a stable person.

Oh and byt he way assult rifles are illegal. The definition of an
assault rifle keeps changing bbut any fully automatic machine gun has
been illegal since 1934 here. To me that's more than enough

Yes, for you. Rifles that are easy to modify to fully automatic are
easily available.

when they are doing nothing. In California, the gun control laws are
aimed at the apperance of the gun. They don't want someone to be shot
with something that looks scary. In the mean tim ethey are making
prison sentences shorter and letting a lot more murderers go free.

We need to do more in California. Talk to the NRA. They didn't want
anything. Ever hear of three strikes? Prison populations are on the
rise, not declining.

Rant away... guns, guns, guns... sounds like a Monty Python script.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Not blaming the gun any more than the automobile. I'm advocating what
the majority of Americans want... a safer enviroment.

Yes but it is not a safer environment only the illusion of one at the
cost of our personal freedoms.

Hate to tell you, but he probably had mental problems. Are you
advocating locking those people up before they do anything?

No but it is illegal for people with a mental illness to purchase a
gun. He was just never diagnosed. I haven't seen anything that says
he obtained the gun legally so I couldn't tell you how he got it or
the cicumstances involved. Someone stated earlier that the serial
numbers were filed off meaning that particular gun was already
illegal since you are not allowed to own a gun that has altered
numbers in any way.

Tell me why?? That's not what you do when you register your gun or you
need to supply ID and wait a couple of weeks while the authorities
verify you are who you say you are and that you are a stable person.

I am not saying that there should be no check but advocating banning
the sale/ownership of a gun is a whole other story plus the check is
done in about five minutes. The justification fro the wait is so you
don't legally buy it then run out and kill someone in a crime of
passion. Crimes of passion done with firearms has not gone down since
this was put into place. As I said before kitchen knives, pillows,
rope, a car all dangerous.

Yes, for you. Rifles that are easy to modify to fully automatic are
easily available.

Yes and I can make a shotgun out of a peice f pipe with a nail in it.
My Dad was a cop for 30 years and he showed me a bunch of homemade
guns they confiscated. Modifying the gun to fully auto is illegal as
well. Making "more illegal" isn't going to do anything.

We need to do more in California. Talk to the NRA. They didn't want
anything. Ever hear of three strikes? Prison populations are on the
rise, not declining.

Yes the NRA has to act on the extreme opossite just get a middle
ground result. The NRA is the biggest advocate for using firearm
education and safety training as gun control where all the liberals
say that learning isn't the important part we should just take them
away. The NRA sponsors more safety and education classes than anyone
else when it comes to firearms but nobody talks about that side do
they?

Rant away... guns, guns, guns... sounds like a Monty Python script.

Oh so because you have no real logical argument you have to start
making personal shots against me. That's fine it doesn't bother me.

Bill wrote:
Before proper gun control is instituted.....or are you really that
afraid of everything?


Yes lets blame the gun. it's the guns fault those people are dead,
not the person who knowingly killed them. Nope if holding that gun
was illegal he would have never done it I mean KILLING people isn't
illegal or anything. Plus it's always a good idea to restrict the
freedoms of people out of fear and control. It really doen't help
make people safer just gives that illusion. Do you know who were huge
supporters of gun control? Hitler, Stalin, Polpot and Mussilini. The
people thought just like you, that it would make them safer and give
them a better more civilized country. But that's somehow different.
Robbing you of freedoms is okay if the people are to stupid to realize
it like in your country. Most Americans are to and that really
bothers me. You shouldn't have to justify the desire to own a gun.
You shouldn't have to justify anything here that does not harm
others. My gun has never killed or harmed another person. I own it
legally and I shouldn't have to tell you why. I own many things that
I don't "need" but i still have them. I have some kitchen knives that
could kill someone but I don't have to register those.

Oh and byt he way assult rifles are illegal. The definition of an
assault rifle keeps changing bbut any fully automatic machine gun has
been illegal since 1934 here. To me that's more than enough
regulation but sadly there are plenty of other laws. The liberal
dip****s don't care about helping people they only care about passing
useless laws to make it look like they are doing something important
when they are doing nothing. In California, the gun control laws are
aimed at the apperance of the gun. They don't want someone to be shot
with something that looks scary. In the mean tim ethey are making
prison sentences shorter and letting a lot more murderers go free.
Yep it's the guns fault not the person that did the act. hey maybe
gun is out robbing a bank right now without me even knowing it.

It's the gun's faiult..it's the school's fault..it's the Board's
fault..it's the cops fault...of course it can't be a 23 year old psycho,
not even a citizen's fault..my God...what is the world coming to that we
would blame him?

In article . com,
Bill wrote:
Not blaming the gun any more than the automobile. I'm advocating what
the majority of Americans want... a safer enviroment.

Yes but it is not a safer environment only the illusion of one at the
cost of our personal freedoms.

Sounds like you're not a big fan of Bush then, since the war in Iraq
was supposed to make us feel safer, even though it's having the
opposite effect.

Limit easy access to guns... how many fewer deaths will that get us? A
lower number than died in 9/11?

Hate to tell you, but he probably had mental problems. Are you
advocating locking those people up before they do anything?

No but it is illegal for people with a mental illness to purchase a
gun. He was just never diagnosed. I haven't seen anything that says

Correct. So, in order to help solve this obvious problem, make gun
ownership a priviledge that has to be earned not a claimed right that
doesn't actually exist.

Tell me why?? That's not what you do when you register your gun or you
need to supply ID and wait a couple of weeks while the authorities
verify you are who you say you are and that you are a stable person.

I am not saying that there should be no check but advocating banning
the sale/ownership of a gun is a whole other story plus the check is
done in about five minutes. The justification fro the wait is so you
don't legally buy it then run out and kill someone in a crime of
passion. Crimes of passion done with firearms has not gone down since
this was put into place. As I said before kitchen knives, pillows,
rope, a car all dangerous.

Never advocated nor do I advocate banning gun ownership. That's just a
red herring to obfuscate the effort to regulate gun ownership.

Five minutes is not enough time to do a proper check, at least not
yet. When we get to that point, fine. Until then, we need to give law
enforcement time to do a proper check and we need to let them keep the
records long enough to have a chance of following up.

Yes, for you. Rifles that are easy to modify to fully automatic are
easily available.

Yes and I can make a shotgun out of a peice f pipe with a nail in it.
My Dad was a cop for 30 years and he showed me a bunch of homemade
guns they confiscated. Modifying the gun to fully auto is illegal as
well. Making "more illegal" isn't going to do anything.

Nevertheless...

We need to do more in California. Talk to the NRA. They didn't want
anything. Ever hear of three strikes? Prison populations are on the
rise, not declining.

Yes the NRA has to act on the extreme opossite just get a middle
ground result. The NRA is the biggest advocate for using firearm

Oh come on. Heston went on a rant right after Columbine. Totally
wrong-headed, pig-headed view that undermines people's right in a
civil society.

education and safety training as gun control where all the liberals
say that learning isn't the important part we should just take them
away. The NRA sponsors more safety and education classes than anyone
else when it comes to firearms but nobody talks about that side do
they?

All the liberal?? Holy generalization batman...

Rant away... guns, guns, guns... sounds like a Monty Python script.

Oh so because you have no real logical argument you have to start
making personal shots against me. That's fine it doesn't bother me.

I've made them, you haven't. Still waiting...




--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Sounds like you're not a big fan of Bush then, since the war in Iraq
was supposed to make us feel safer, even though it's having the
opposite effect.

When did this become about Bush and Iraq? Are you just trying to
throw more things in so that you don't have to make any sense?

Limit easy access to guns... how many fewer deaths will that get us? A
lower number than died in 9/11?

No actually more people would die as shown in other countries that
have banned guns and seen an increase in violent crimes.

Correct. So, in order to help solve this obvious problem, make gun
ownership a priviledge that has to be earned not a claimed right that
doesn't actually exist.

Earned how? we all have the right to own guns just not the right to
hurt people with it unless it is absolutely necessary. What other
right do you have to earn? If it is seen as a priveledge then how do
you have to earn it? by taking classes and passing a safety test?
guess what you already have to take a test to buy a gun and most gun
owners, including the politacl arguments made by the NRA, advocate
mandatory safety classes to be able to purchase a gun.

Never advocated nor do I advocate banning gun ownership. That's just a
red herring to obfuscate the effort to regulate gun ownership.

Then what are you advocating? You are claiming that guns are
dangerous and shouldn't be allowed but now you say that people should
be able to own them. What exactly is your stance now?

Five minutes is not enough time to do a proper check, at least not
yet. When we get to that point, fine. Until then, we need to give law
enforcement time to do a proper check and we need to let them keep the
records long enough to have a chance of following up.

There is a federally kept list of everyone that is not allowed to
purchase or own a gun in this country. The check is done with you in
the store at the time of purchase where the vendor looks up your
information in a computer or calls a phone number and puts in your
info. If any of about 100 criteria are met to get you on that list
they don't sell to you. The list is maintained with the idea that if
you are even suspected of meeting one of these criteria you are put on
the list and not taken off until they are cleared for whatever reason.

Nevertheless...

Oh come on. Heston went on a rant right after Columbine. Totally
wrong-headed, pig-headed view that undermines people's right in a
civil society.

Heston was put into place to increase exposure and popularity but when
te NRA saw how extreme and nuts he is had him step down and now have a
different president. What his view is is no longer relevant to the
NRA or any of the gun owners out there.

All the liberal?? Holy generalization batman...

Politically speaking yes. There may be a few that are not that way
but the vast majority are advocating banning guns which until this
thread you were to. And besides you would have to generalize because
I can not give a case by case account of what every person in the US
thinks.

I've made them, you haven't. Still waiting...

maybe I have been reading a different thread but I missed any actual
argument that wasn't emotionally based in fantasy that contradicts
actual reality or historical evidence.

Just to clerify, what do you think needs to be done becasue you seem
to have changed you stance here. Maybe I misunderstood so as to be
sure that we are discussing the same thing why don't you spell it out.

In article .com,
Bill wrote:

Sounds like you're not a big fan of Bush then, since the war in Iraq
was supposed to make us feel safer, even though it's having the
opposite effect.

When did this become about Bush and Iraq? Are you just trying to
throw more things in so that you don't have to make any sense?

Just now. I made a comparison. I don't see you disputing it.

Limit easy access to guns... how many fewer deaths will that get us? A
lower number than died in 9/11?

No actually more people would die as shown in other countries that
have banned guns and seen an increase in violent crimes.

Huh? Where are you getting these "facts"? From Mars?

Correct. So, in order to help solve this obvious problem, make gun
ownership a priviledge that has to be earned not a claimed right that
doesn't actually exist.

Earned how? we all have the right to own guns just not the right to
hurt people with it unless it is absolutely necessary. What other
right do you have to earn? If it is seen as a priveledge then how do

Just like the privilege of driving a car. It needs to be earned.

you have to earn it? by taking classes and passing a safety test?
guess what you already have to take a test to buy a gun and most gun
owners, including the politacl arguments made by the NRA, advocate
mandatory safety classes to be able to purchase a gun.

Completely untrue... not even in liberal California. You plunk down
your cash, and you get the gun in a few days. Been there, did that.

Never advocated nor do I advocate banning gun ownership. That's just a
red herring to obfuscate the effort to regulate gun ownership.

Then what are you advocating? You are claiming that guns are
dangerous and shouldn't be allowed but now you say that people should
be able to own them. What exactly is your stance now?

Registration, thorough background check, education, and the limits on
how many can be purchased in a given period.

Five minutes is not enough time to do a proper check, at least not
yet. When we get to that point, fine. Until then, we need to give law
enforcement time to do a proper check and we need to let them keep the
records long enough to have a chance of following up.

Heston was put into place to increase exposure and popularity but when
te NRA saw how extreme and nuts he is had him step down and now have a
different president. What his view is is no longer relevant to the
NRA or any of the gun owners out there.

Sure. Especially because you say so.

All the liberal?? Holy generalization batman...

Politically speaking yes. There may be a few that are not that way
but the vast majority are advocating banning guns which until this
thread you were to. And besides you would have to generalize because
I can not give a case by case account of what every person in the US
thinks.

You can't? Wow. Amazing. But, it sounded so good.

I've made them, you haven't. Still waiting...

maybe I have been reading a different thread but I missed any actual
argument that wasn't emotionally based in fantasy that contradicts
actual reality or historical evidence.

Maybe you have.

Just to clerify, what do you think needs to be done becasue you seem
to have changed you stance here. Maybe I misunderstood so as to be
sure that we are discussing the same thing why don't you spell it out.

See previous.




--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 12:46:29 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz) said:

I'm advocating what
the majority of Americans want

Hurry!!! Jump on the band wagon.!

Hurry!!! Who gives a sh*t what the people actually want! Not the gun, oil,
insurance, tobacco lobbies...


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Just now. I made a comparison. I don't see you disputing it.

I'm not disputing it because it is completely irrelevant.

No actually more people would die as shown in other countries that
have banned guns and seen an increase in violent crimes.

Huh? Where are you getting these "facts"? From Mars?

No from England, Australia and Canada. They aren't on Mars. By the
way where are you getting the facts that less people will die. No
country that has banned firearms has seen a decread in crime.

Just like the privilege of driving a car. It needs to be earned.

you mean taking a test? http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/hscinfo.php This is
the california handgun safety certificate test. Not only do you ahve
to pass this test but you also are not allowed to purchase more than
one handgun in a 30 day period. Also there is a 10 day waiting period
and the background check.

Completely untrue... not even in liberal California. You plunk down
your cash, and you get the gun in a few days. Been there, did that.

See above.

Registration, thorough background check, education, and the limits on
how many can be purchased in a given period.

See above.

Sure. Especially because you say so.

So if an orginization realizes that they made a mistake by appointing
the wrong person then rectifies this mistake you only look at that act
to judge the entire orginizations history? That sounds like good
reasoning. It's not just that I say so, it is the official point of
view of the NRA. The NRA newsletter never mentions Heston nor is he
in any way part of making any decisions for the orginization so why
are you bringing him up.

maybe I have been reading a different thread but I missed any actual
argument that wasn't emotionally based in fantasy that contradicts
actual reality or historical evidence.

Maybe you have.

Are you incapable of giving a straight answer? Do you have no idea
what it is you even discussing because you just give a short
irrelevant answer and dodge the question.

Just to clerify, what do you think needs to be done becasue you seem
to have changed you stance here. Maybe I misunderstood so as to be
sure that we are discussing the same thing why don't you spell it out.

See previous.

Good spelling. You said mandatory waiting periods, education and time
limits between purchases. How is that differnt what we have? you
keep saying that we need more regulation but then you say that the
regulations you want are the same as what we have. You say that we
should ban more guns but then say we shouldn't. If you can't actually
say what you thinkt hen i don't want to play anymore.

In article . com,
Bill wrote:
Good spelling. You said mandatory waiting periods, education and time
limits between purchases. How is that differnt what we have? you
keep saying that we need more regulation but then you say that the
regulations you want are the same as what we have. You say that we
should ban more guns but then say we shouldn't. If you can't actually
say what you thinkt hen i don't want to play anymore.

Fine with me... I'm going sailing, without my guns.




--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com