On Mar 12, 2:55 pm, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:
"Jewel" wrote in message

...

Anyone tell me how a vessel equipped with lanteen sails goes about
without dropping its sail and resetting it on the other side.
Many thanks

They don't go at all. There is no such thing as a lanteen sail or a
lanteen rig.

Wilbur Hubbard


Having built and sailed two small sailboats with LATEEN rigs, I can
answer. You tack just as you would in any other sailboat. Both spars
of the sail (boom and gaff) are one side of the mast on either tack.
This does not matter at all because the pportion of the sail
immediately adjacent to the mast is very small and low compared to the
huge portion of the sail that is far from and undistorted by the
mast.. A Lateen rig is a great way to get a huge sail on a small boat
without using a tall mast.
On the sails I have made, I have considered cutting off the portion of
the sail that overlaps the mast but have not done so yet.

"Jewel" wrote:
Anyone tell me how a vessel equipped with lanteen sails goes about
without dropping its sail and resetting it on the other side.

"Frogwatch" wrote:
You tack just as you would in any other sailboat. Both spars
of the sail (boom and gaff) are one side of the mast on either tack.

I can only add, there can be a slight difference in the way the boat
sails (starboard vs port tack) due to the lump (or lack thereof)
caused by the mast against (or not) the sail. The difference on a
Sunfish, for example, is hardly noticable and of no concern unless
you're seriously into racing.

The original Lateen rigs, of a couple thousand years ago, DID drop
their sails to tack. Thence came the origination of the term "Chinese
firedrill" ;-)

(except I think it was Arab pirates that invented it)

Rick

On Mar 12, 3:45 pm,
"Jewel" wrote:
Anyone tell me how a vessel equipped with lanteen sails goes about
without dropping its sail and resetting it on the other side.

"Frogwatch" wrote:
You tack just as you would in any other sailboat. Both spars
of the sail (boom and gaff) are one side of the mast on either tack.

If you 're thinking Sunfish, yes. This is a modern rig for recreation,
and very different from the old-timey working vessels lateen rigs.


Phantman wrote:
I can only add, there can be a slight difference in the way the boat
sails (starboard vs port tack) due to the lump (or lack thereof)
caused by the mast against (or not) the sail. The difference on a
Sunfish, for example, is hardly noticable and of no concern unless
you're seriously into racing.

Even then, it's of no consequence because you're going to be racing
other Sunfish, or lese under a handicap that takes the rig into
account.

A long time ago I raced Sunfish pretty seriously, and tried the gaff
on one side and then the other. So did a LOT of other people. None
noticed any difference... a far greater difference is in where the
halyard & gooseneck are secured, and in how flat you hold the boat..


Phantman wrote:
The original Lateen rigs, of a couple thousand years ago, DID drop
their sails to tack. Thence came the origination of the term "Chinese
firedrill" ;-)

(except I think it was Arab pirates that invented it)


Why pirates & not honest traders?

Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians. It is notably closer-winded than the square sail,
especially with ancient technology & materials. It is a sail for heavy
cargo ships which do not want to carry a lot of oarsmen to get to
windward... rowing galleys always carried square sails becuase they
would only sail downwind & in fair weather. In ancient/classic times,
the lateen was always boomless. A few classic lateens were rigged to
dip the gaff, ie swing it vertical and then around to set on the new
leeward side. Most of the ones that did this were obligated to gybe
instead of tack when doing so.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Phantman wrote:
The original Lateen rigs, of a couple thousand years ago, DID drop
their sails to tack.
snip
(except I think it was Arab pirates that invented it)

dougking888 wrote:
Why pirates & not honest traders?

Maybe they pirated the idea from the honest traders? Anyhow, the
pirates made such good use of it, the honest traders were forced to
change their shipping strategy to numerous smaller ships and shipments
rather than large ones... to spread the risk.

Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians.

Seems to me they'd definitely have the incentive. That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it, and
later developed by Byzantines and Arabs. I guess it depends on who's
history you believe. -shrug- Personally, I don't remember. Happened
before I was born. Anyhow, whoever invented it, changed the nature of
sailing and international commerce from then on.

Rick

Why pirates & not honest traders?

Phantman wrote:
Maybe they pirated the idea from the honest traders? Anyhow, the
pirates made such good use of it, the honest traders were forced to
change their shipping strategy to numerous smaller ships and shipments
rather than large ones... to spread the risk.


True, at some points. Piracy has followed cycles (just like most
economic activity) and there were certainly periods in antiquity when
pirates were a very strong factor in shipping. Julius Ceasar was
captured and held for ransom by pirates in his early days.


Anyway, the lateen was devloped along the Med coast, possibly by the
Phoenicians.

Seems to me they'd definitely have the incentive. That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it, and
later developed by Byzantines and Arabs. I guess it depends on who's
history you believe.

I'm not going to jump into a debate that maritime historians have
argued for decades (possibly centuries). But at this point, we have a
lot of physical remains of ships from antiquity, and find different
structures (including mast steps & partners) that could have supported
a fore-n-aft rig... and others that definitely could not have. For
example, the Egyptians did a lot of coastal trading about the eastern
Med but apparently did not use the lateen until long after other
people had proven it's worth. Personally my vote is for either the
Phoenicians or the Minoans, both of whom had extensive sea trade and
were technological innovators. The Romans were great at copying other
people's inventions, but were not really a nation of inventors &
tinkerers.

-shrug- Personally, I don't remember.

Hah!
If you were an *old* old salt, you'd have been there!

... Anyhow, whoever invented it, changed the nature of
sailing and international commerce from then on.


Agreed. Sailing to windward was in invention ranking right up there
with the wheel IMHO... and more important for many centuries, in terms
of tonnage carried.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first
'invasion' of Britain but first used to kick Gaul arse on the French/
Spanish Coast. It seems the technique was to load up the boats with
soldiers, wait for a flat calm then row about your opponent's (poorly
manned) stationary ships dealing with them one by one.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up
with your own solution based on you strengths. Apparently there's no
evidence they were manned by slaves.

In article .com,
toad wrote:
On 13 Mar, 02:36, wrote:

That galley rowing
all the time's a killer. Wikopedia says the Romans introduced it,

I've just read a biography of Boudica. That concurs that the Romans
were the first to come up with Galleys with multiple tiers of oars
giving a serious alternative power source. Designed for the first

Not even nearly. Try the Greeks in the ~700-800 BCE era for two-tier
galleys (/probably/ the Ionian city-states). Triremes (three tiers) were
introduced (by Samos?) somewhere around or before 600 BCE and were the
most common "capital ships" until the Hellenistic period, after the
break-up of Alexander the Great's empire - the successor states then
began putting more than one man on an oar, leading eventually to galleys
with 20 men diposed on three vertically-tiered oars (Ptolemy IV went as
far as a catamaran galley with two "twentys" fastened together. A big, big
ship with plenty of oar power. Probably a brute to handle under sail,
though.

The big galleys vanished from sight after Actium, and by the time of the
Roman invasion of Britain (Claudius, not Caesar's raiding expeditions)
they were long gone - galleys of the Imperial period were small biremes
(Liburnians - two-deck galleys) and a few triremes - back to the Greek
ships of nearly 500 years before, in size at least.

http://www.amazon.com/Ships-Seamansh.../dp/0801851300

is probably the best general reference on the subject.

The Romans knew damn all about boats and damn all about seamanship
outside of the Med. Apparently they just copied their boats from the
Greeks, and added oars. Great example of fresh thinking, and coming up

Copied more from Carthegian designs than Greek - Greek ships were
still much bigger than the Roman or Cartheginian ships of that period.

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

toad wrote:
I've just read a biography of Boudica.

While we are on the pedantry trail - two Cs, or else you can't misread
it as Boadicea.

Andy

Rick,

On the larger Trukiss Rig they use almost a Square Sail and when they
tack, they rotate the Booms on the Mast letting the Luff become the
Tack. That is the Chinese Fire Drill. Releasing the tack ends and
drawing the new tack to a point


http://community.webtv.net/tassail/ThomJazz
http://community.webtv.net/tassail/AGooddayTODAY

tassail (Thom Stewart) wrote:
On the larger Trukiss Rig

I Googled "Trukiss Rig" and it popped up a page that said:
"Did you mean 'Trucks' Rig?" LoL!

they use almost a Square Sail and when they
tack, they rotate the Booms on the Mast letting the Luff become the
Tack. That is the Chinese Fire Drill. Releasing the tack ends and
drawing the new tack to a point

I was joking about the origination of the "fire drill" term. I can't
tell if you are joking or not. But the Trukiss Rig you describe would
certainly qualify for the designation imho.

Rick