"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On 1 Mar 2007 15:48:00 -0800, wrote:

You're the one adding all the extra steps, after Jeff told
him exactly what to do.

Aww, give Charlie-Krusty a break. He's trying to be nice, he's just
not very good at it (hardly surprising).


How's the treatment going?

See, I care!

CWM


Nice to see you turning over a new leaf, Bitty Bill. Certainly is an
improvement over the old days when you wished death on Old Thom.

Wilbur Hubbard

I like Mundo's solution best.

katysails said:
the messenfer line is better
in some respects becasue then you're not passing an increased width of
line through the roller at the top. On some boats, any increase in
width will cause a jam up there and then you'll end up going up the
mast

And as others have mentioned, sometimes if a messenger line is too
skinny, or if the sheave is worn a bit, or if there is any axial play
in the sheave (ie space between the sides of the sheave and the exit
box), the messenger will jam.


anyway...also, if you have internal halyards like ours, the whole
operation goes smotther using a messenger line..we just use that cheap
stuff from WallyWorld...more cord than line, but it's strong enough
not
to break under tension and slides over things ..

Parachute cord is good for this. You can rub it with paraffin (shades
of Tadpole and his tallow!) and it will slide very smoothly over
almost anything.


"Dave" wrote
.......I laid the old and new
lines
end to end and, joined them with duct tape, then seized over the duct
tape .... Worked like a charm.

I've done this too, only without the seizing. Works for pulling
electrical wire too. The big issue/problem here is if the edge of the
duct tape gets caught on something inside and starts to peel back, you
can lose the whole assembly (ask me how I know).

The best solution for running new lines that I know if (and nobody's
mentioned it yet) is to take about a foot of the core out of the ends
of each line. Put the two stripped-out ends together and sew them as
previously described, and you've got a slightly smaller & more limber
joint between old line & new. It will lay flat in the sheave and not
tend to jump. And if you want to put a splice in the end, you've
already made a start!


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
All this talk about line. Real sailors use trouble-free wire.

Nobody who has ever gotten snagged on a wire with broken strand(s)
will ever forget why they call 'em "meat hooks." Wire is heavy & it
corrodes & it cannot be tied in convenient knots.

....Wire lasts almost forever

And it's impossible to tell when hidden corrosion is about to part it.

and it stretches less than fiber halyards for better sail shape and control

Only if you buy cheap-o crap line for your halyards.

.... It has less weight and windage aloft

Not so.


... and can be spliced to a tail of line if you prefer to
handle line.


If you prefer to handle line, why not use line in the first place?

One other fault of wire which ropes will not... long ago I was racing
a 35 footer, which had a wire lift on the spinnaker pole. The pole was
wood (told you this was a long time ago) and due to some inattention
by the foredeck crew, the lift rubbed against the pole under strain
and sawed about 1/3 of the way thru it. The owner was not amused.

Slightly further back than this, big racing boats used wire genoa
sheets and they were a hazard as well as a PITA.

I have also seen wire halyards cut thru lines inside masts, and saw
grooves in the exit boxes of the mast itself. Wire has it's place but
there is much better stuff for running rigging these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Scotty wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...



Becasue it does...becasue we tried it...you have to use

enough tape and

stitch enough to make sure the lines don't come aprt, no?

Well....that

much tape and stitching makes the halyard too fat to go

through the slot

for inmast halyards...been there, done that..messenger

line is the way

to go...


How many rolls of tape did you use.
ONE piece of good quality duct tape is all that's needed.
What is that, 1/3 mm ?

Scotty


Wouldn't hold...ours has to run through a plastic sleeve all the way up
the mast...keeps things from banging against each other in there....

* Scotty wrote, On 3/1/2007 6:34 PM:
Jeff, something happened to my shackle a few years back,
can't recall at the moment, but I simply tied the halyard to
the headboard. You see any problem with that?


I tied on halyards for many years before I learned that some folks had
these new fangled gadgets called shackles. However, a shackle is
easier, and a bit more fool-proof, assuming its all "captured." It
takes less discipline to double check a shackle than a knot. Not the
either is too hard, but its a "percentage game" - something you do 50
times a year you're bound to get sloppy about sometime. The stunsail
tackbend can be a pain to untie, though its never impossible. And,
you can't trust anyone else to know it.

My answer to the "lost shackle" problem is that your parts bag should
carry a few extra shackles - at least one nice one for halyards, plus
a few for chain and other gear.

Jeff wrote:
* katy wrote, On 3/1/2007 6:34 PM:
...

Becasue it does...becasue we tried it...you have to use enough tape
and stitch enough to make sure the lines don't come aprt, no?
Well....that much tape and stitching makes the halyard too fat to go
through the slot for inmast halyards...been there, done
that..messenger line is the way to go...


Stitching should add virtually nothing, a couple of wraps of tape are
under a tenth of an inch. So if that's too tight, it may mean that your
halyard is oversized. In terms of strength, main halyards generally
handle a smaller load than any other running rigging - mine are only
7/16, while the jib and spinnaker are 9/16. Of course, fat halyards are
easier to handle.

The next time the mast is down you might want to look at the sheave and
see what size it is.

All our lines are oversized...on purpose...

wrote in message
s.com...
I like Mundo's solution best.

katysails said:
the messenfer line is better
in some respects becasue then you're not passing an increased width
of
line through the roller at the top. On some boats, any increase in
width will cause a jam up there and then you'll end up going up the
mast

And as others have mentioned, sometimes if a messenger line is too
skinny, or if the sheave is worn a bit, or if there is any axial play
in the sheave (ie space between the sides of the sheave and the exit
box), the messenger will jam.


anyway...also, if you have internal halyards like ours, the whole
operation goes smotther using a messenger line..we just use that
cheap
stuff from WallyWorld...more cord than line, but it's strong enough
not
to break under tension and slides over things ..

Parachute cord is good for this. You can rub it with paraffin (shades
of Tadpole and his tallow!) and it will slide very smoothly over
almost anything.


"Dave" wrote
.......I laid the old and new
lines
end to end and, joined them with duct tape, then seized over the
duct
tape .... Worked like a charm.

I've done this too, only without the seizing. Works for pulling
electrical wire too. The big issue/problem here is if the edge of the
duct tape gets caught on something inside and starts to peel back, you
can lose the whole assembly (ask me how I know).

The best solution for running new lines that I know if (and nobody's
mentioned it yet) is to take about a foot of the core out of the ends
of each line. Put the two stripped-out ends together and sew them as
previously described, and you've got a slightly smaller & more limber
joint between old line & new. It will lay flat in the sheave and not
tend to jump. And if you want to put a splice in the end, you've
already made a start!


"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
All this talk about line. Real sailors use trouble-free wire.

Nobody who has ever gotten snagged on a wire with broken strand(s)
will ever forget why they call 'em "meat hooks." Wire is heavy & it
corrodes & it cannot be tied in convenient knots.

....Wire lasts almost forever

And it's impossible to tell when hidden corrosion is about to part it.

and it stretches less than fiber halyards for better sail shape and
control

Only if you buy cheap-o crap line for your halyards.

.... It has less weight and windage aloft

Not so.


... and can be spliced to a tail of line if you prefer to
handle line.


If you prefer to handle line, why not use line in the first place?

One other fault of wire which ropes will not... long ago I was racing
a 35 footer, which had a wire lift on the spinnaker pole. The pole was
wood (told you this was a long time ago) and due to some inattention
by the foredeck crew, the lift rubbed against the pole under strain
and sawed about 1/3 of the way thru it. The owner was not amused.

Slightly further back than this, big racing boats used wire genoa
sheets and they were a hazard as well as a PITA.

I have also seen wire halyards cut thru lines inside masts, and saw
grooves in the exit boxes of the mast itself. Wire has it's place but
there is much better stuff for running rigging these days.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


The wire halyards on my boat are over 25 years old and have yet to
develop the first meat hook. You must use high-quality 7 X 19 stainless
steel wire. 1/8" is strong and durable enough for sailboats up to about
30 feet. 1/8" stainless steel wire weighs less than an equivalent length
of 7/16 high tech fiber especially when the fiber gets wet. Wire is
maintenance free. It never gets stiff and moldy. People who remove their
fiber halyards every year to launder them are daft, just daft. What
next? Toss your sails in the washing machine? A sailboat's for sailing.
It's not for laundering. Running ANY type of halyard inside a mast is
asking for problems. Be sensible, run them outside the mast where you
can keep an eye on them. As for wire sawing through things that's a
problem of crew neglect and improper runs.

Wilbur Hubbard

"katy" wrote in message
...

All our lines are oversized...on purpose...


Doesn't it make it harder to suck them through that rolled up dollar
bill?

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:
The wire halyards on my boat are over 25 years old and have yet to
develop the first meat hook.

You must not use them much, then. Any wire which is bent or compressed
(such as where it runs over a sheave) under strain will break strands.



1/8" is strong and durable enough for sailboats up to about
30 feet.

And over that?

1/8" stainless steel wire weighs less than an equivalent length
of 7/16 high tech fiber especially when the fiber gets wet.

Wire never gets wet?
I would like to see specs comparing the weight & strength of various
modern line versus wire.

Heck, why not use *chain* halyards? It's strong and much more flexible
than wire.


.... What
next? Toss your sails in the washing machine?

Nope, I used to spread mine out on a nice lawn. Invite some girls in
bikinis to help & roll around in the suds.

.... A sailboat's for sailing.
It's not for laundering.

That may be, but you have to clean stuff once in a while or it turns
into a filthy sludgy mess.


... Running ANY type of halyard inside a mast is
asking for problems.


No it isn't, it's just a higher level of technology. If you have the
tools, the materials, and the skills, internal halyards are no more
problem than external. Besides, Herreshoff used them!

.... As for wire sawing through things that's a
problem of crew neglect and improper runs.


I agree. Woe to us all, the world does not always function perfectly!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Mar 2007 19:07:07 -0500, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
. ..
On 1 Mar 2007 15:48:00 -0800, wrote:

You're the one adding all the extra steps, after Jeff told
him exactly what to do.

Aww, give Charlie-Krusty a break. He's trying to be nice, he's just
not very good at it (hardly surprising).


How's the treatment going?

See, I care!

CWM


Nice to see you turning over a new leaf, Bitty Bill. Certainly is an
improvement over the old days when you wished death on Old Thom.

Wilbur Hubbard

Never happened. And "Binary Bill" has been gone for over a year now,
Get over
yourself. Really. Only a complete retard would want that guy back.


CWM

Sorry, I must have remembered wrong. It looks like it was Bobsprit who
wished Old Thom dead. Here's one of Thom's old posts indicating this was
the case. He mentioned BB ion the post and that's probably why I
remembered it wrong.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...e=source&hl=en

Wilbur Hubbard

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
* Scotty wrote, On 3/1/2007 6:34 PM:
Jeff, something happened to my shackle a few years back,
can't recall at the moment, but I simply tied the
halyard to
the headboard. You see any problem with that?


I tied on halyards for many years before I learned that
some folks had
these new fangled gadgets called shackles. However, a
shackle is
easier, and a bit more fool-proof, assuming its all
"captured." It
takes less discipline to double check a shackle than a
knot. Not the
either is too hard, but its a "percentage game" -
something you do 50
times a year you're bound to get sloppy about sometime.
The stunsail
tackbend can be a pain to untie, though its never
impossible. And,
you can't trust anyone else to know it.

My answer to the "lost shackle" problem is that your parts
bag should
carry a few extra shackles - at least one nice one for
halyards, plus
a few for chain and other gear.

I do carry several spare shackles ,now, but at the time this
happened it was a 'quick fix' and go sailing. Then I just
couldn't figure out the advantage of a knot trough a shackle
through the headboard. You say a shackle is easier...for
what? My halyard stays on all season.
I looked up the buntline hitch. I'll try that this year.

Scotty