I previously posted about my desire do save the cost and mast real
estate of a winch for the roller furling jib halyard since it is
infrequently used. I posted this sketch:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg

which elicited no technical comments but started a long thread about
how I was negligently and foolishly endangering my children and
everyone else by requiring anyone to leave the security of the
cockpit.

After the clean up of drilling for some eyestraps on the boom and
still picking aluminum shreds out of my barefeet the next day, I
decided that I would like very much to avoid any mast drilling at this
point. So, I came up with this arrangement:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard2.jpg

Our halyards went through turning blocks in a mast step base plate for
leading to the cockpit. I retained the blocks because it's easier to
pull up than down. I just took the turning block off and attached it
with a short tackle of 5/16" line with a double fiddle block and a
double block. Extend the tackle and cleat at the proper point. Then,
haul as much slack out of the halyard as possible and cleat with the
turning block close to the cleat. Use the tackle for final tension.

Now, the astute among you will note that the turning block reduces the
power of the arrangement by half so a triple block might be called for
on a larger boat. However, luff on our 32 foot boat looked better
today than it ever did when I was sweating it tight with the winch.

The arrangement works out well in practice. If something in the
tackle should break, the luff will slacken but not come down because
it is cleated close to the turning block. The long tail on the
tensioning tackle goes around the mast to secure the jib halyard coil
and anything else that is not needed frequently. If you do need to
get the sail down in a hurry, it just uncleats normally and the effect
is just that of a turning block a few inches higher than normal.

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
I previously posted about my desire do save the cost and mast real
estate of a winch for the roller furling jib halyard since it is
infrequently used. I posted this sketch:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg

which elicited no technical comments but started a long thread about
how I was negligently and foolishly endangering my children and
everyone else by requiring anyone to leave the security of the
cockpit.

snipped installation descr

I'd encourage you to bear in mind that not everyone who posts to usenet
is a confident sailor who has spent some time doing things at sea.

I'm glad you are happy with your arrangement. I'd offer that on a boat
this size, one can get as much or more force than needed without any of
this by simply choking the line at the cleat, putting one's foot hard &
high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard outward like a
bowstring while snubbing it up between strokes. It is done everyday,
and in a heavier seaway one only needs to time one's body motion with
the rolls, while being quite secure by virtue of holding onto a line
with both hands that isn't about to go anywhere. Cost & time to
design, purchase & install: zero. It is much faster, too, once you get
the hang of it, and you will soon find yourself wondering why anyone
bothers having little single-speed winches at all (and their cranks to
deal with too), let alone more running rigging to take their place.

Roger Long wrote:
I previously posted about my desire do save the cost and mast real
estate of a winch for the roller furling jib halyard since it is
infrequently used. I posted this sketch:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg

which elicited no technical comments but started a long thread about
how I was negligently and foolishly endangering my children and
everyone else by requiring anyone to leave the security of the
cockpit.



wrote:
I'd encourage you to bear in mind that not everyone who posts to usenet
is a confident sailor who has spent some time doing things at sea.


Ya think?

I'm glad you are happy with your arrangement. I'd offer that on a boat
this size, one can get as much or more force than needed without any of
this by simply choking the line at the cleat, putting one's foot hard &
high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard outward like a
bowstring while snubbing it up between strokes.

I'd offer that you have no idea how much halyard tension is desirable on
a keelboat of this size, and I'll bet you haven't tried "putting one's
foot hard & high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard
outward" in any kind of seaway.

Picture this... how much force would be on a line used to *tow* the boat
at 5 1/2 or 6 knots, thru a bit of lumpy water? Are you going to sweat
that line tighter with your hands & feet, with no added purchase? Is the
halyard tension greater or less?


... you will soon find yourself wondering why anyone
bothers having little single-speed winches at all (and their cranks to
deal with too), let alone more running rigging to take their place.

Indeed, I wonder about that already.

Actually, Roger's idea for a running tackle to gain enough halyard
tension to get the sail to set properly is a good one. I've used a
similar arrangement (albeit on smaller boats) and even tailed the extra
purchase to a split control line (one on each side of the cockpit, so as
to be able to adjust halyard tension on either tack... a racing
refinement). No reason why it wouldn't work on Roger's boat, although
one might want to put some kind of shock cordon the tackle, or restrain
it to a track, to hold it in place & not cause damage and/or injury
while the halyard is flailing around.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

Roger Long wrote:

I previously posted about my desire do save the cost and mast real
estate of a winch for the roller furling jib halyard since it is
infrequently used. I posted this sketch:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Halyard.jpg

which elicited no technical comments but started a long thread about
how I was negligently and foolishly endangering my children and
everyone else by requiring anyone to leave the security of the
cockpit.




wrote:

I'd encourage you to bear in mind that not everyone who posts to usenet
is a confident sailor who has spent some time doing things at sea.


Ya think?

I'm glad you are happy with your arrangement. I'd offer that on a boat
this size, one can get as much or more force than needed without any of
this by simply choking the line at the cleat, putting one's foot hard &
high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard outward like a
bowstring while snubbing it up between strokes.


I'd offer that you have no idea how much halyard tension is desirable on
a keelboat of this size, and I'll bet you haven't tried "putting one's
foot hard & high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard
outward" in any kind of seaway.

Picture this... how much force would be on a line used to *tow* the boat
at 5 1/2 or 6 knots, thru a bit of lumpy water? Are you going to sweat
that line tighter with your hands & feet, with no added purchase? Is the
halyard tension greater or less?

Plus, it looks from Roger's drawing like the halyards are inside the
mast. The bowstring method won't work then will it?

Stephen

"DSK" wrote in message
...

I'd offer that you have no idea how much halyard tension is
desirable on a keelboat of this size, and I'll bet you haven't tried
"putting one's foot hard & high against the mast, & alternately
drawing the halyard outward" in any kind of seaway.

You'd be wrong. A quarter century of sweating halyards on boats from
7 to over 300 feet.

--

Roger Long

I'd offer that you have no idea how much halyard tension is
desirable on a keelboat of this size, and I'll bet you haven't tried
"putting one's foot hard & high against the mast, & alternately
drawing the halyard outward" in any kind of seaway.


Roger Long wrote:
You'd be wrong. A quarter century of sweating halyards on boats from
7 to over 300 feet.


You seem to take offense at almost every post of mine, which is not my
intent.

I suggest you talk to a sailmaker about how much halyard tension you
should set on your genoa. If you're comfortable with trying to get that
much force by sweating up the line, then great.

OTOH having sailed on both sides (hot-stuff racers & gaffers) for 3+
decades, I can tell you for a fact that you cannot get sufficient
halyard tension on a modern rig that way, except on small boats (SA200
or maybe a little more).

But don't believe me. Talk to a couple of sailmakers.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

No offense taken or meant. I'm confused though. I thought you were
saying that you *could* get sufficient tension by sweating. Maybe one
of us is replying to the wrong reply.

We can get close (although probably not optimum) sweating our small
working jib but the genoa needs a lot more.

--

Roger Long



"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
I'd offer that you have no idea how much halyard tension is
desirable on a keelboat of this size, and I'll bet you haven't
tried "putting one's foot hard & high against the mast, &
alternately drawing the halyard outward" in any kind of seaway.


Roger Long wrote:
You'd be wrong. A quarter century of sweating halyards on boats
from 7 to over 300 feet.


You seem to take offense at almost every post of mine, which is not
my intent.

I suggest you talk to a sailmaker about how much halyard tension you
should set on your genoa. If you're comfortable with trying to get
that much force by sweating up the line, then great.

OTOH having sailed on both sides (hot-stuff racers & gaffers) for 3+
decades, I can tell you for a fact that you cannot get sufficient
halyard tension on a modern rig that way, except on small boats
(SA200 or maybe a little more).

But don't believe me. Talk to a couple of sailmakers.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

As a traditional sailor with most of my time behind gaffs and
bowsprits, I am more than familiar with sweating. It is amazing what
you can move that way.

As someone points out below, my halyards are internal and the fitting
locations are not optimum for old fashioned tug and grunt. Sweating
or the winch worked OK on the working jib but the 150 roller furling
genoa with the foam and double cloth layer in the leading edge seems
to need a lot of tension to set right.

Due to the loss mechanical advantage with the turning block, I
actually had to sweat on the tackle line. It's short but it still
worked well. When I get the mast off the boat and relocate a lot of
the stuff, I'll raise the cleats which will help. I'd go with a
triple block if I did this again and certainly if the boat was any
larger.

I agree that on a 30 foot or under boat, one with hank jib, or jibs a
standard leading edge, you can get by with sweating alone if the
halyards are external or exit high enough on the mast.

--

Roger Long

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm glad you are happy with your arrangement. I'd offer that on a
boat
this size, one can get as much or more force than needed without any
of
this by simply choking the line at the cleat, putting one's foot
hard &
high against the mast, & alternately drawing the halyard outward
like a
bowstring while snubbing it up between strokes.

Roger Long wrote:

As someone points out below, my halyards are internal and the fitting
locations are not optimum for old fashioned tug and grunt.

dumb lookThat's what I get for posting from where I couldn't view
your pic. ;-) Thank you for your patience, Roger.

Sweating
or the winch worked OK on the working jib but the 150 roller furling
genoa with the foam and double cloth layer in the leading edge seems
to need a lot of tension to set right.

I've found the same even with the little Furlex on my 7.5M where I
first encountered it, & am surprised some disagree. Yet they drop
freely & smartly (i.e., not a sailmaker issue with the luff treatment,
as one seemed to imply). It seems to be simply the matter of having
"more stuff in the luff" to tension.

Due to the loss mechanical advantage with the turning block, I
actually had to sweat on the tackle line.

It seems sweat is built into any method - I seem to produce more of it
trying to use small winches.

What was most on my mind during my mis-aimed post was your expressed
comment about being warned about or castigated by posters for having
anyone leave the cockpit. This concerned me because even though some
of us have everything lead thereto & easily managed therefrom under
normal conditions (I almost went broke on good blocks & clutches to do
it the first time & they were well worth it), it seems a lot more
unsafe to wait until an emergency, gear failure or malfunction happens
to get used to working up forward comfortably & safely. I wonder how
many mishaps either may occur or be exacerbated due to someone's terror
& unfamiliarity bred by cockpit-bound sailing, and haven't noticed it
mentioned.

Being somewhat of a lifelong chicken myself, even on a 1000' VLCC, I
try to take advantage of every opportunity to to leave the cockpit for
the sake of staying familiar, conditioned & confident. I figure that
anyone who goes to sea for fun has a few screws loose anyway, so if I
am going to intentionally risk death, I want to at least be able to
resist or delay it from anywhere aboard. :-)

Thx the read.

Roger Long wrote:
As a traditional sailor with most of my time behind gaffs and
bowsprits, I am more than familiar with sweating. It is amazing what
you can move that way.

As someone points out below, my halyards are internal and the fitting
locations are not optimum for old fashioned tug and grunt. Sweating
or the winch worked OK on the working jib but the 150 roller furling
genoa with the foam and double cloth layer in the leading edge seems
to need a lot of tension to set right.

Due to the loss mechanical advantage with the turning block, I
actually had to sweat on the tackle line. It's short but it still
worked well. When I get the mast off the boat and relocate a lot of
the stuff, I'll raise the cleats which will help. I'd go with a
triple block if I did this again and certainly if the boat was any
larger.

I agree that on a 30 foot or under boat, one with hank jib, or jibs a
standard leading edge, you can get by with sweating alone if the
halyards are external or exit high enough on the mast.

--

Roger Long


I'm glad to find somebody else who thinks this way.
I have pulled gaffs and sails up much larger than most cruisers by a
little mechanical advantage and some sweating.
The arangement you have is similar to running rigging on a raceing
yacht from the late 1900's , the yacht was class leader for more than
30 years so it cant be that bad an idea.