"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:48:52 -0500, katy
said:

the messenfer line is better
in some respects becasue then you're not passing an increased width of
line through the roller at the top. On some boats, any increase in
width will cause a jam up there and then you'll end up going up the
mast
anyway...also, if you have internal halyards like ours, the whole
operation goes smotther using a messenger line..we just use that cheap
stuff from WallyWorld...more cord than line, but it's strong enough
not
to break under tension and slides over things ..

Haven't replaced any halyards on my boat yet, but I did have to
replace the
in-boom reefing lines a couple of years ago. I laid the old and new
lines
end to end and, joined them with duct tape, then seized over the duct
tape
to keep it in place, and pulled the new lines through using the old
line as
a messenger. Worked like a charm.

All this talk about line. Real sailors use trouble-free wire. C'mon get
serious about your boat. Wire lasts almost forever and it stretches less
than fiber halyards for better sail shape and control It has less weight
and windage aloft and can be spliced to a tail of line if you prefer to
handle line.

Wilbur Hubbard

Ed, I take my halyards home every Winter and clean them.
3/8'' line, sewed them the first few times, now I just tape
them.
Scotty



"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

ups.com...
I need to replace my the halyard for main main sail.
How can I do this
without climbing the mast?

The old halyard is still in place.

Thanks



You can cut off whatever is at the business end of the
old halyard and
either sew the new one on temporarily or attach a mouse
(light line) to it
with tape and pull it through... I've done the latter
several times...
just
pull gently otherwise you might separate the two lines.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

What a lengthy argument about the simplest of jobs which I
have done many
times!
You _must_ use a messenger line unless your boat is very
small because it is
very hard to sew two fullsize ropes together with a strong
joint that will
not bulge and jam in the sheave at the top. Also Jon's
suggestion of tape is
a no-no because as the new halliard is hauled up there is
every chance the
whole thing will come unstuck and you will lose the end
and then you will
have to get yourself hauled up on the spinnaker halliard
to reeve the new
one or drop a 'mouse' down (if the halliard runs inside
the mast). My mast
is 50' high and by the time you have hauled 50' of rope up
to the top the
weight on the join is quite substantial and the additional
tug as the joint
goes over the sheave may prove to be the last straw.
The messenger line can be quite small because synthetic
line is very strong
and this enables you to use a sail needle and incorporate
it into the old
rope in such a way that it will stand very considerable
force. Take a bit of
trouble over this and save yourself a big hassle.
I have four halliards going to the top of my mast and like
to take them down
periodically and put them through the washing machine.
Cleans them and
softens the rope which may have developed stiffness due to
stress and time.

Katy, you should know better than to side with the NG dunce.
How does sewing and/or taping add any significant width
(dia.) ?

Scotty


"katy" wrote in message
...

Actually, as much as CM is a royal dunce, the messenfer
line is better
in some respects becasue then you're not passing an
increased width of
line through the roller at the top. On some boats, any
increase in
width will cause a jam up there and then you'll end up
going up the mast
anyway...also, if you have internal halyards like ours,
the whole
operation goes smotther using a messenger line..we just
use that cheap
stuff from WallyWorld...more cord than line, but it's
strong enough not
to break under tension and slides over things ...

* Charlie Morgan wrote, On 3/1/2007 5:38 PM:
On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 16:43:53 -0500, Jeff wrote:

* Charlie Morgan wrote, On 3/1/2007 2:45 PM:
...
You're the one adding all the extra steps, after Jeff told
him exactly what to do.

On many boats, you either have to cut off the splice/shackle end or
use a messenger wire from the other direction.
There can certainly be a variety of different setups. However, this
touches on an interesting question: Which is better, splicing on the
shackle, or tying it? My preference is for tying, using a stunsail
tackbend (buntline hitch) which will cinch down on the shackle and
hold it tight. The knot takes up little space, while a splice could
potentially get jammed in the sheave. Also, with a knot its easy to
"end for end" periodically.

I may consider that idea the next time I replace a halyard. Do you find the knot
gets in the way at times when trying to use a shackle key?

Nope, but I have a fairly large shackle.

I have a number of
halyards that are all clipped to a mast ring when not in use. That might add to
the crowding there, as well.

It might.

My other question would be the relative strength of
a well done splice versus a well tied knot. I tend to think the splice would be
stronger.

A "well done splice" is generally stronger than a knot, but its easy
to see that a knot is well tied, but its harder to tell if a splice is
well done. I've seen more splices fail than knots.

The real question is "How much strength is needed?" I think halyard
tension is well under 1000 pounds, while the strength of the line with
a knot is probably 5 times that.

Jeff, something happened to my shackle a few years back,
can't recall at the moment, but I simply tied the halyard to
the headboard. You see any problem with that?

Scotty




"Jeff" wrote in
A "well done splice" is generally stronger than a knot,
but its easy
to see that a knot is well tied, but its harder to tell if
a splice is
well done. I've seen more splices fail than knots.

The real question is "How much strength is needed?" I
think halyard
tension is well under 1000 pounds, while the strength of
the line with
a knot is probably 5 times that.

Scotty wrote:
Katy, you should know better than to side with the NG dunce.
How does sewing and/or taping add any significant width
(dia.) ?

Scotty


"katy" wrote in message
...

Actually, as much as CM is a royal dunce, the messenfer

line is better

in some respects becasue then you're not passing an

increased width of

line through the roller at the top. On some boats, any

increase in

width will cause a jam up there and then you'll end up

going up the mast

anyway...also, if you have internal halyards like ours,

the whole

operation goes smotther using a messenger line..we just

use that cheap

stuff from WallyWorld...more cord than line, but it's

strong enough not

to break under tension and slides over things ...



Becasue it does...becasue we tried it...you have to use enough tape and
stitch enough to make sure the lines don't come aprt, no? Well....that
much tape and stitching makes the halyard too fat to go through the slot
for inmast halyards...been there, done that..messenger line is the way
to go...

"katy" wrote in message
...



Becasue it does...becasue we tried it...you have to use
enough tape and
stitch enough to make sure the lines don't come aprt, no?
Well....that
much tape and stitching makes the halyard too fat to go
through the slot
for inmast halyards...been there, done that..messenger
line is the way
to go...

How many rolls of tape did you use.
ONE piece of good quality duct tape is all that's needed.
What is that, 1/3 mm ?

Scotty

You're the one adding all the extra steps, after Jeff told
him exactly what to do.

Aww, give Charlie-Krusty a break. He's trying to be nice, he's just
not very good at it (hardly surprising).

Charlie Morgan wrote,
On many boats, you either have to cut off the splice/shackle end or
use a messenger wire from the other direction.

How much voltage do you recommend using on that messenger wire,
Krustie?

In any event cutting a perfectly good splice is not something I'm very
quick to do. It wastes line & the time spent making the splice.

Jeff wrote:
There can certainly be a variety of different setups. However, this
touches on an interesting question: Which is better, splicing on the
shackle, or tying it?

Depends on the configuration at the truck. Is the head of the sail a
bit below the sheave? Does the sheave protrude very slightly to give a
fair lead straight down the luff of the sail? How long is the backstay
crane (or there may not even be a standing backstay)? How important is
it to be able to remove the shackle, and how important is it to get
every fraction of an inch in hoist?

In racing boats, I like the halyard on a splice. Generally tolerances
are tighter and there's a better lead from the sheave.

My preference is for tying, using a stunsail
tackbend (buntline hitch) which will cinch down on the shackle and
hold it tight. The knot takes up little space, while a splice could
potentially get jammed in the sheave. Also, with a knot its easy to
"end for end" periodically.

So is a splice if you don't mind cutting it

Good knot suggestion. Much better than a bowline, which can get jammed
in the sheave easier than a splice and also will torque the headboard
to one side or the other.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
news

. I use my main sail halyard for going up
the mast, so that's pushing the 1000 pound tension.

* katy wrote, On 3/1/2007 6:34 PM:
....
Becasue it does...becasue we tried it...you have to use enough tape and
stitch enough to make sure the lines don't come aprt, no? Well....that
much tape and stitching makes the halyard too fat to go through the slot
for inmast halyards...been there, done that..messenger line is the way
to go...

Stitching should add virtually nothing, a couple of wraps of tape are
under a tenth of an inch. So if that's too tight, it may mean that
your halyard is oversized. In terms of strength, main halyards
generally handle a smaller load than any other running rigging - mine
are only 7/16, while the jib and spinnaker are 9/16. Of course, fat
halyards are easier to handle.

The next time the mast is down you might want to look at the sheave
and see what size it is.