Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight?
Scout

"Scout" wrote in message ...
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight?
Scout


Right you are Scout. The first heavy lift gliders came about before 1800. You can see that the technology existed in planes before it got around to sailboats.

http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/...e/firstair.htm

Most of the people here are not knowledgeable in the ways of science. It was once said that science was too important to be left for the scientists. But laymen have neither the training or the inclination for scientific thought. I will no longer sit back and allow non science opinion, non science indoctrination and the international non science conspiracy to sap and irrationalize our precious scientific thought. Have you ever seen a non scientist drink water? Distilled, pure, ion free water? That's right, your typical non scientist does not drink pure distilled water. Their precious bodily fluids are impure and their capacity for scientific thought is impaired. This all became apparent to me during the act of calculating. I assure you my scientific essence remains pure, though I deny non scientists the benefits of my calculations.

Gilligan" wrote in message . ..

"Scout" wrote in message ...
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the wing and mechanical flight?
Scout


Right you are Scout. The first heavy lift gliders came about before 1800. You can see that the technology existed in planes before it got around to sailboats.

http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/...e/firstair.htm

Most of the people here are not knowledgeable in the ways of science. It was once said that science was too important to be left for the scientists. But laymen have neither the training or the inclination for scientific thought. I will no longer sit back and allow non science opinion, non science indoctrination and the international non science conspiracy to sap and irrationalize our precious scientific thought. Have you ever seen a non scientist drink water? Distilled, pure, ion free water? That's right, your typical non scientist does not drink pure distilled water. Their precious bodily fluids are impure and their capacity for scientific thought is impaired. This all became apparent to me during the act of calculating. I assure you my scientific essence remains pure, though I deny non scientists the benefits of my calculations.

It would not be difficult Mein Fuhrer! . . . I'm sorry, Mr. President.
Scout

Scout wrote:
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the
concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the
wing and mechanical flight?
Scout

So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the
old square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually
do fairly well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to
about 45 degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old
ships couldn't come close to this.

There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go
upwind at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general
commerce (as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited
degree. And there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to
windward.

But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch
and Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind.
This is 67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were
considered quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much
as a point in ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently
development.

And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier
writers and claims:
"1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water
smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make
little or no lee-way.
2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in.
3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed."

And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be
held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4
degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of
his book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a
Voyage from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries
shown with speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how
to do the various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at
6 points off the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or
a full point. When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no
leeway, but a few entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous
for the high accuracy of his dead reckoning, so this technique,
although it seems crude, must be effective.

Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6
points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3
knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with
a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into
the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles
in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an
adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could
be lost.

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Scout wrote:
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the
concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the
wing and mechanical flight?
Scout

So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the old
square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually do fairly
well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to about 45
degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old ships couldn't
come close to this.

There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go upwind
at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general commerce
(as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited degree. And
there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to windward.

But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch and
Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind. This is
67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were considered
quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much as a point in
ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently development.

And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier writers
and claims:
"1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water
smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make little
or no lee-way.
2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in.
3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed."

And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be
held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4
degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of his
book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a Voyage
from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries shown with
speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how to do the
various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at 6 points off
the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or a full point.
When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no leeway, but a few
entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous for the high accuracy
of his dead reckoning, so this technique, although it seems crude, must be
effective.

Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6 points
is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3 knots. With
half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with a full point its
only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into the wind will make
some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles in a full day. And its
easy to see that with rough seas, or an adverse current, or even a minor
mishap, all headway for a watch could be lost.

Jeff,
Thanks for the details - great reading!
Scout

Read Alan Villiers "The set of the sails" (qv.)
"My progress was one long dour beat. To wind'ard! To wind'ard! Day after
day. week after week: sometimes after a week's hard beating I had made sixty
miles..."

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
Scout wrote:
Read that somewhere recently.
I knew downwind sailing was "it" for a very long time, but did the
concept of sailing to wind really come about with the evolution of the
wing and mechanical flight?
Scout

So this discussion tweaked my curiosity about just how weatherly the
old square riggers were. Some of the modern square riggers actually
do fairly well, with modern sailcloth and yards setup for getting to
about 45 degrees off the wind, with modest leeway. However, the old
ships couldn't come close to this.

There was certainly a huge variation, and many ships could not go
upwind at all, but most of the ships made for exploration and general
commerce (as opposed to specific routes) could go upwind to a limited
degree. And there are famous stories of long and tedious beats to
windward.

But what was the standard? Texts from 200 years ago, such as Bowditch
and Darcy, list six points as the closest you can make to the wind.
This is 67.5 degrees. Some ships, such as the USS Constitution, were
considered quite weatherly, and did somewhat better, perhaps as much
as a point in ideal conditions, but this was a fairly recently
development.

And how much leeway? Bowditch summarizes several other earlier
writers and claims:
"1st. When a ship is Close-Hauled, with all her sails set, the water
smooth, and a moderate gale of wind, she is then supposed to make
little or no lee-way.
2d. Allow 1 point, when the top-gallant sails are taken in.
3d. Allow 2 points, when the top-sails must be close-reefed."

And so on. So in ideal conditions, 6 points net off the wind might be
held, but if sails have to be taken in, the leeway is 1 point (11 1/4
degrees) or more. Bowditch finishes the navigation text section of
his book with an example journal of dead reckoning, "The journal of a
Voyage from Boston to Madeira." It includes all of the log entries
shown with speed, wind, and leeway estimates, along with notes on how
to do the various computations. All of the close hauled sailing is at
6 points off the wind, with leeway estimates of zero, a half point, or
a full point. When footed off to 7 points, generally there is no
leeway, but a few entries list half a point. BTW, Bowditch was famous
for the high accuracy of his dead reckoning, so this technique,
although it seems crude, must be effective.

Ans what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6
points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3
knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with
a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into
the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles
in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an
adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could
be lost.

That's what happens when you're too proud to fire up the engine!

Edgar wrote:
Read Alan Villiers "The set of the sails" (qv.)
"My progress was one long dour beat. To wind'ard! To wind'ard! Day after
day. week after week: sometimes after a week's hard beating I had made sixty
miles..."


....

And what does this mean for the VMG to Windward? The cosine of 6
points is .38, so if she were making 6 knots, the VMG would be 2.3
knots. With half a point of leeway, that becomes 1.75 knots, and with
a full point its only 1.2 knots. In other words, a ship beating into
the wind will make some headway, but it might only be 30 to 40 miles
in a full day. And its easy to see that with rough seas, or an
adverse current, or even a minor mishap, all headway for a watch could
be lost.