Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.



Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.
The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability. You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail. Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.

RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.

Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.

No, I'm chastising you for using your ignorance as a platform for
criticizing other boats.

The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.

Then you haven't talked to sailors. Pointing is of interest to round
the buoys racers because of the tactical situations involved. And the
best racers are in one-design, where each boat has the same
theoretical VMG, so making the boat point better than others is of
some value. But, when one talks about open water sailing and upwind
capability, pointing is meaningless and VMG is the measure of upwind
performance.

You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail.

Being able to gain VMG while footing off is a blessing only some boats
enjoy. Knowing when to do it is an important skill. Pinching is also
a useful skill but I find rather few situations where its useful.

Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.


Right. Just like you define upwind performance by how high a boat can
point rather than how well it actually goes upwind.

being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you. If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.
Folks who race are also sailors. My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on. Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats. They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.
Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you. You KNOW she's fast and fun.
You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere. You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform that is virtually souless.
But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.
And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

Live with it, Jeff. Move on.


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you.

He may be wiser but he's not that much older.

If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.

No you don't. I made money on the water, for longer than you've been
sailing. You sell a few tired boats and scrap gear.

Folks who race are also sailors.

I raced for a number of years, even have some silver.

My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on.

What's his name, JaxAshby? You sound like a complete idiot, ranting
that you have a friend that likes your boat. What a Doophus!! So
what's your point, he's a racer who happens to like your club racer.
If you actually raced it, it might have some meaning.

Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats.

So? I have a friend who has no interest in Beneteaus. He thinks they
really suck. (Really, and he's one of the most respected surveyors on
the East Coast. He calls them "bend-in-twos.")


They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.

That's why they're the fastest growing segment of the boating industry.


Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you.

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum. Suzy will have her hands full with two babies going
through the terrible twos at the same time.


You KNOW she's fast and fun.

Yes, I'm sure it is. However, when I want fast and fun I'd rather
take a 470.

You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere.

Must I? You must know I keep a sailing dinghy hanging in davits and a
kayak on the rail. I just like to use them in neat spots like
Penobscot Bay. I can have my cake and eat it too, all you get are
Ding-Dongs.

You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform

that's true. Yup, that what I wanted, the perfect cruising boat. And
that's what we got. You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk that you'll take on two overnights a year,
and maybe thats what you got.

that is virtually souless.

I didn't know you were so religious.

But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.

Our cat has taken us from the Great Lakes to Maine to the Florida Keys
and back, in comfort and safety. Now we're only doing about 7-8 weeks
a summer on board, but in a few years we'll head out again. You're
right, that doesn't sound like fun.

What's going on here is that you can't stand the fact that someone
else in the group has a bigger, faster, prettier, more comfortable,
and just plain better boat than you. And it actually gets used to go
cruising, something that seems to scare the crap out of of you.
Frankly, I think that Scotty, DSK, and all the others have more fun on
their boats than you can ever understand, and it shows in the raw
jealousy that drips out of everyone of your posts.


And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

You can only dream about cruising, everyone else here actually does it.


Live with it, Jeff. Move on.

Yup. In a few days we're moving on about 150 miles to the Vineyard.
Maybe Cuttyhunk. Maybe over to Block or Narragansett. Wherever the
wind takes us.

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its
all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum.

Stop it. Your confusing him.

"Jeff" wrote

You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk that you'll take on two
overnights a year,


A Mac 26 X would be perfect for that!

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's
a person who
earns money on the water.

Your wife makes money down on the docks. Does that make her
a sailor?

SV

Jeff wrote:
No, I'm chastising you for using your ignorance as a platform for
criticizing other boats.


But it's the only basis he has to work from.


You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail.


No, Jeff talks about choosing which of the two is better for
a given situation; and knowing the difference between the
components of VMG and VMG.


Being able to gain VMG while footing off is a blessing only some boats
enjoy.

No, there's a range in which any boat will gain VMG by
bearing away: any time the bow is pointed above optimum VMG
for the conditions. There's the key, knowing how the given
boat responds to conditions.


Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail.

When did I say that? Quote please!


Right. Just like you define upwind performance by how high a boat can
point rather than how well it actually goes upwind.

Well, that's an improvement. Bubles used to define "upwind
performance" by what it said in the advertising brochure.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

and knowing the difference between the
components of VMG and VMG.


Well said, Doug. You sure know what you're talking about.
My boat outpoints Jeffs. Period. And it's better in the light suff of
the LIS. Perior. And it's more fun to sail. Period.
And Jeff actually agrees with all of this. So without being critical of
how I sail, what exactly is your point???
Uh oh!


RB
35s5
NY

"Capt" Rob wrote:
Well said, Doug. You sure know what you're talking about.

Of course.

My boat outpoints Jeffs. Period.

But when does it make better VMG?

And Jeff actually agrees with all of this.

Really?

.... So without being critical of
how I sail

Oh, I don't criticise *how* you sail, just doubtful that you
actually know diddley-squat about boats or sailing.

... what exactly is your point???

That you're nuts, Bubbles.

DSK