"Maxprop" wrote in message

You shoot for the head??? Interesting, and most unorthodox.

WTF??? Of course you do a head shot if possible. Only an American who
couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while locked inside goes for a chest
shot.
One shot... one drop.

CM

In article .net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

Actually I have. I've watched the process at three separate slaughter
houses, and yes it ain't pretty. But it's hardly clubbing the animals,
skinning them while still alive, and allowing them to die in agony.

Nope, it's raising them in confined pens, feeding them rations
formulated to maximise weight gain and desired marbling, loading them
onto trucks using cattle prods and the like, transporting them to a
place of slaughter where they are usually deprived of food & water, or
at least on minimum rations, then forcing them through more races to a
place of slaughter, where they can smell the ones in front dying.

That's a far cry from the description I gave above. Downright humane by
comparison, actually. They may be able to hear and smell the death of their
fellow steers, but they cannot cognitively process that information beyond
simply becoming alarmed. The beef I saw being slaughtered simply resisted
being pushed toward the slaughter pit, no differently than they resisted
being pushed into the barn back at the feed lot or being pushed into a
trailer for transportation.

Perhaps, but the differences are profound. Perhaps you should view a
harp
seal harvest before making such ridiculous claims.

What ridiculous claims have I made? I said that *both* were abhorrent.
Is this a ridiculous claim?

IMO, it's ridiculous to compare a beef slaughterhouse with the harp seal
harvest. That's my opinion, and you won't change it. I've seen both.

I think clubbing, and then live-skinning, any animal should be a
criminal offence. I don't care if they're being killed, as long as it's
fast & humane and the kill is within sustainable harvest levels.

Agreed.

As for intensively farmed livestock, the *only* bit of their lives that
may be described as humane is the kill. The differences aren't as
profound as you might like to believe.

I think you've tended to anthropomorphize livestock.

Not hardly. I took my first degree in biology and have been responsible
both directly and morally for killing more animals than probably anyone
else on this n/g. I was a fisheries biologist for years and used to
kill literally tonnes of fish. If the odd marine mammal drowned in the
process - cost of doing business. Ditto albatross etc we accidentally
caught on troll lines. Then I worked in animal production R&D for 10
years as a hands-on s/ware developer. Once again we killed a huge
amount of livestock - chickens, pigs, cattle, sheep - as a routine part
of the work. You'd have to look far & wide to find someone less likely
to anthropomorphise livestock.

Flip side is, my opinions are based on first hand observations over
quite a long period of time. What are yours based on? Ever worked in a
piggery? How about a battery chicken farm? Cattle feedlot holding
50,000 head? What do you know about the drug regimes necessary to
suppress diseases and the number of animals with subacute infections,
or the witholding periods? Acceptable death rates from being fed
rations that are designed to make the steers fat to meet a particular
market niche?

Steers are not
sentient,

Harp seals aren't sentient either. What's your point?

therefore don't really give a rat's posterior as to what
conditions they live in, nor for the congestion or crowding.

I'm sure that's a comforting belief for you, Max, but I firmly
disagree, and I've *worked* on feedlots. Steers most certainly do
suffer health problems from being crowded into small pens, having to
jostle to feed out of troughs instead of graze, having to play
dominance games to get adequate shade/shelter, etc etc. You'll never be
able to prove whether they care or not as the beasts can't talk, but
it's most certainly possible to prove the ill effects on health from
the intensive rearing practises.

And what about intensive rearing of pigs? If you're going to tell me
that pigs don't know about and suffer under the conditions we subject
them to, I'm going to laugh in your face. Pigs are smart & playful if
allowed to be.

But animals
can suffer pain and a lingering death. There are huge differences between
the way livestock is raised and slaughtered and the harp seal harvest.

As I said in the first place, there's a lot smaller difference than you
want to think, when it comes to comparing factory livestock rearing. I
understand why you want to hold onto your beliefs, but you're
convincing nobody, least of all me.

I'm done with this. Get back to me after you've worked in a feedlot,
intensive piggery or similar and then we'll see if your opinion is
still the same. As for the seal harvest, I already said that anyone who
doesn't make sure the animal is dead before skinning it is a barbarian
and a criminal IMO.

PDW

In article k.net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Bob Crantz
wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article et,
Maxprop wrote:

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Maxprop wrote:

"Bob Crantz" wrote in message
. ..
Lots of batting practice:

http://tinyurl.com/o9owv

The brutal murder of harp seal pups still evokes a visceral
reaction
after
all these years. Think how much better the US baseball team would
be
if
we
could bash the skulls of those Canadian hunters. I'm betting Dusty
Baker
could probably raise the Cubs' team average by .200.

Max

Brutal murder? My ass! It's no worse than what we do to millions of
pigs and cows every year.

Hardly. Most domesticated farm animals slaughtered for food and hides
are
sacrificed with a device termed a "humane killer," which is little
more
than
a gun that blows the brains to mush instantly, obviating pain on the
part
of
the animal. The animal is generally dead before it hits the ground.

Pretty true, Max, except - have you ever been in an abbatoir? Seen the
slaughter line? Seen how the beasts are handled *before* they even get
there?

I have. I wrote software for a research project dealing with feedlots
and spent a lot of time close up & personal with all of this stuff.
That was 10 years ago and I haven't forgotten it. You haven't a clue of
just how much suffering and fear those beasts go through prior to their
quick and painless death.

You're making a really, really bad comparison between
institutionalised, factory slaughter and clubbing cute little seals to
death.

Both are abhorrent.

PDW

Great point!

That's why hunting is more humane than a slaughterhouse.

The anti-hunters haven't a clue!

Damn right. One second peacefully grazing in the field, the next dead
from a brain shot. I spent a huge amount of time in my teens thru to my
40's hunting.

You shoot for the head??? Interesting, and most unorthodox.

Max, if I'm hunting for the pot, I'm not there to play games. I use a
spotlight and a scope sighted rifle shooting from the back of a 4WD,
and if I can't get a clean head shot, I don't shoot.

Simple.

If you shoot a kangaroo through the chest, even with a .243 using
hollow points, it's odds-on it's gonna run 150-200 metres before
bleeding out and stopping.

Rabbits, foxes & feral cats, OTOH, we used to shoot for fun. Chest
shots were plenty good enough.

PDW

So....... what's your point?

PDW
In article , Capt. JG
wrote:

I believe they are protected here.

That your target practice would result in a fine.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

So....... what's your point?

PDW
In article , Capt. JG
wrote:

I believe they are protected here.

Not only that... here you go straight to jail. I know, I had a guy
throw in jail for hitting a seagull with a big rock and breaking it's
back. Then the dip**** did not have the balls to get the bird out of
the water and end it's suffering. The Sherriff was there in 5 min , was
not amused, and hauled his ass straight to jail. Took a 50,000 dollar
bail bond to get him out.

He was a yard hand working for Halliburton. They fired him.

Joe

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:N62Vf.8879$%H.3931@clgrps13...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

You shoot for the head??? Interesting, and most unorthodox.

WTF??? Of course you do a head shot if possible. Only an American who
couldn't hit the broad side of a barn while locked inside goes for a chest
shot.
One shot... one drop.

Makes for a really ugly trophy on the wall. Or perhaps you like those
gaping exit wounds on yours.

I was taught by a very experienced hunter--my grandfather--who learned to
hunt with black powder calibers just after the turn of the century. A deer
skull was plenty thick enough to deflect a simple lead bullet if hit in a
thicker cranial area. So the proper shot was a heart shot--ribs penetrate
easily. Still is, at least according to those with far more experience than
I have. Perhaps our deer down here are more intelligent and able to easily
detect a hunter who's close enough to take a head shot. Canadian deer =
idiots.

Max

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Max, if I'm hunting for the pot, I'm not there to play games. I use a
spotlight and a scope sighted rifle shooting from the back of a 4WD,
and if I can't get a clean head shot, I don't shoot.

Simple.

And illegal in my state. No lights and no shots from a vehicle allowed.

If you shoot a kangaroo through the chest, even with a .243 using
hollow points, it's odds-on it's gonna run 150-200 metres before
bleeding out and stopping.

A roo is a big animal. Why are you using a piddly .243? A Winchester
..300WSM or 7mm WSM would make more sense, it would seem. The explosive
power of the expansion from either of those rounds would stop a roo dead in
his tracks even if you hit an inch from his heart.

Rabbits, foxes & feral cats, OTOH, we used to shoot for fun. Chest
shots were plenty good enough.

We don't have feral cats, but we shoot rabbits here with .22 handguns.
Foxes are protected in my area--they were nearly hunted to extinction back
in the 70s.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Makes for a really ugly trophy on the wall. Or perhaps you like those
gaping exit wounds on yours.

Hunt for Trophys.... and you dare speak out against clubbing seals???


I was taught by a very experienced hunter--my grandfather--who learned to
hunt with black powder calibers just after the turn of the century. A
deer skull was plenty thick enough to deflect a simple lead bullet if hit
in a thicker cranial area. So the proper shot was a heart shot--ribs
penetrate easily. Still is, at least according to those with far more
experience than I have. Perhaps our deer down here are more intelligent
and able to easily detect a hunter who's close enough to take a head shot.
Canadian deer = idiots.

Proof positive you are no hunter, and can't handle a firearm properly. Nuf
Said.

CM

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:1IHVf.8819$B_1.5910@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Makes for a really ugly trophy on the wall. Or perhaps you like those
gaping exit wounds on yours.

Hunt for Trophys.... and you dare speak out against clubbing seals???

I don't hunt for trophys, but I presumed you--Nanook of Nova Scotia, eater
of raw caribou kidney--probably did. But since you brought up the point,
hunting kills an animal cleanly--clubbing doesn't. And 99.9% of hunters who
keep a trophy head also dine on the fruits of the carcasse. So there, nah,
nah.

I was taught by a very experienced hunter--my grandfather--who learned to
hunt with black powder calibers just after the turn of the century. A
deer skull was plenty thick enough to deflect a simple lead bullet if hit
in a thicker cranial area. So the proper shot was a heart shot--ribs
penetrate easily. Still is, at least according to those with far more
experience than I have. Perhaps our deer down here are more intelligent
and able to easily detect a hunter who's close enough to take a head
shot. Canadian deer = idiots.

Proof positive you are no hunter, and can't handle a firearm properly. Nuf
Said.

I hope you gain some satisfaction with such insipid remarks, because they
don't bother me in the least. Knowing your propensity for opening
mouth/inserting your size 13s, I expect such obtuse statements from you.
I'm confident you are not anywhere near my league with either a pistol,
rifle, or shotgun. You are also nowhere near Bobsprit's league as a Usenet
fisherman.

Max