In article .net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

Actually I have. I've watched the process at three separate slaughter
houses, and yes it ain't pretty. But it's hardly clubbing the animals,
skinning them while still alive, and allowing them to die in agony.

Nope, it's raising them in confined pens, feeding them rations
formulated to maximise weight gain and desired marbling, loading them
onto trucks using cattle prods and the like, transporting them to a
place of slaughter where they are usually deprived of food & water, or
at least on minimum rations, then forcing them through more races to a
place of slaughter, where they can smell the ones in front dying.

That's a far cry from the description I gave above. Downright humane by
comparison, actually. They may be able to hear and smell the death of their
fellow steers, but they cannot cognitively process that information beyond
simply becoming alarmed. The beef I saw being slaughtered simply resisted
being pushed toward the slaughter pit, no differently than they resisted
being pushed into the barn back at the feed lot or being pushed into a
trailer for transportation.

Perhaps, but the differences are profound. Perhaps you should view a
harp
seal harvest before making such ridiculous claims.

What ridiculous claims have I made? I said that *both* were abhorrent.
Is this a ridiculous claim?

IMO, it's ridiculous to compare a beef slaughterhouse with the harp seal
harvest. That's my opinion, and you won't change it. I've seen both.

I think clubbing, and then live-skinning, any animal should be a
criminal offence. I don't care if they're being killed, as long as it's
fast & humane and the kill is within sustainable harvest levels.

Agreed.

As for intensively farmed livestock, the *only* bit of their lives that
may be described as humane is the kill. The differences aren't as
profound as you might like to believe.

I think you've tended to anthropomorphize livestock.

Not hardly. I took my first degree in biology and have been responsible
both directly and morally for killing more animals than probably anyone
else on this n/g. I was a fisheries biologist for years and used to
kill literally tonnes of fish. If the odd marine mammal drowned in the
process - cost of doing business. Ditto albatross etc we accidentally
caught on troll lines. Then I worked in animal production R&D for 10
years as a hands-on s/ware developer. Once again we killed a huge
amount of livestock - chickens, pigs, cattle, sheep - as a routine part
of the work. You'd have to look far & wide to find someone less likely
to anthropomorphise livestock.

Flip side is, my opinions are based on first hand observations over
quite a long period of time. What are yours based on? Ever worked in a
piggery? How about a battery chicken farm? Cattle feedlot holding
50,000 head? What do you know about the drug regimes necessary to
suppress diseases and the number of animals with subacute infections,
or the witholding periods? Acceptable death rates from being fed
rations that are designed to make the steers fat to meet a particular
market niche?

Steers are not
sentient,

Harp seals aren't sentient either. What's your point?

therefore don't really give a rat's posterior as to what
conditions they live in, nor for the congestion or crowding.

I'm sure that's a comforting belief for you, Max, but I firmly
disagree, and I've *worked* on feedlots. Steers most certainly do
suffer health problems from being crowded into small pens, having to
jostle to feed out of troughs instead of graze, having to play
dominance games to get adequate shade/shelter, etc etc. You'll never be
able to prove whether they care or not as the beasts can't talk, but
it's most certainly possible to prove the ill effects on health from
the intensive rearing practises.

And what about intensive rearing of pigs? If you're going to tell me
that pigs don't know about and suffer under the conditions we subject
them to, I'm going to laugh in your face. Pigs are smart & playful if
allowed to be.

But animals
can suffer pain and a lingering death. There are huge differences between
the way livestock is raised and slaughtered and the harp seal harvest.

As I said in the first place, there's a lot smaller difference than you
want to think, when it comes to comparing factory livestock rearing. I
understand why you want to hold onto your beliefs, but you're
convincing nobody, least of all me.

I'm done with this. Get back to me after you've worked in a feedlot,
intensive piggery or similar and then we'll see if your opinion is
still the same. As for the seal harvest, I already said that anyone who
doesn't make sure the animal is dead before skinning it is a barbarian
and a criminal IMO.

PDW