"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


Ummm, Max, it's not penalizing Mooron at all. It's a big world out
there, lotta interesting places.

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta doesn't.
I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its disappointing that
the border constraints are in place, but that won't stop me. Petty
bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world, and unless you
choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with them and go about
your business.

But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure of
late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd find no
pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So in my own
way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy your time on
ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So in
my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy your
time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience... we
just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If I view
their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to provide.... how can
you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision offend your
national pride? What makes you think I am short changing myself because I
refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I wouldn't travel to any country
requiring that level of infringement on my privacy and freedoms.

CM

Awwww quit your whining...ya sound like a Yank.

Scotty


"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern
border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year,
and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place,
but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every
place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you
simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth
visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I
don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted,
and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's
inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with
those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber
recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in
my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and
Ozzy to enjoy your
time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an
inconvenience... we
just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security
documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US
Customs. If I view
their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can
you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision
offend your
national pride? What makes you think I am short changing
myself because I
refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I wouldn't
travel to any country
requiring that level of infringement on my privacy and
freedoms.

CM

For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3 cities
a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no longer
fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the degrading and
officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers. With my
temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one of those
officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So
in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy
your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If I
view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to provide....
how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision offend
your national pride? What makes you think I am short changing myself
because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I wouldn't travel to
any country requiring that level of infringement on my privacy and
freedoms.

CM

This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned down
my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times..... they
consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to refrain
from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the flight into
a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my "lethal nail
clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take over a plane in
very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what they
are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it is
nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no
longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm
anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no
opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and
Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on my
privacy and freedoms.

CM

Amen, to every one of your points. Thank God, I was not born any later.

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:YvGLf.1188$dg.1146@clgrps13...
This is not merely restricted to your country Jl.... I have also toned
down my air travel in Canada. It's just plain ridiculous at times.....
they consider a nail clipper a lethal weapon!! I had to bite my tongue to
refrain from pointing out that I could beat 3/4 of the passengers on the
flight into a coma with my bare hands before I would consider deploying my
"lethal nail clipper"! I bet 4 men with Navy Seals training could take
over a plane in very little time with no weapons at all.

I can understand and respect proactive security measures..... but what
they are implementing is beyond bordering on ridiculous and I believe it
is nothing more than a facade.

The requirements for travel to the USA reeks of information gathering and
infringement of privacy... not to mention a gross trampling of individual
freedoms.

The very name "Homeland Security" resonates pre cold war Russia / Nazi
Germany.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I
no longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.




"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal
with them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't.....
and you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim
I'm anti American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here
from the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational
pleasure of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on
it--hell, they'd find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with
no opposition. So in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon
and Ozzy to enjoy your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation
and references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If
I view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to
provide.... how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal
decision offend your national pride? What makes you think I am short
changing myself because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request? I
wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on
my privacy and freedoms.

CM

"jlrogers" wrote in message
. com...
For thirty years I traveled every week in the US by air. Sometimes 3
cities a week. I gave it up in 2004 because of 'Homeland Security." I no
longer fly because of the "security." I will not be treated in the
degrading and officious manner that is now imposed on flying passangers.
With my temperment, it would just be a matter of time before I decked one
of those officious *******s.

If you change your mind and go flying into the US again, could you please
let me know where and when? I'd love to watch.

Max

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:VIuLf.2314$M52.1274@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Certainly, but the US sits on his nearby southern border. Jakarta
doesn't. I enter Canada from two to five times per year, and its
disappointing that the border constraints are in place, but that won't
stop me. Petty bureaucracies exist in nearly every place in the world,
and unless you choose to become a self-isolationist you simply deal with
them and go about your business.

Seems to me you assume that because you find Canada worth visiting
repeatitly... I should feel the same way about the USA. I don't..... and
you shouldn't take that personally... get all insulted, and claim I'm anti
American.


But this really has nothing to do with Moroon's inconvenience or his
principles. He loves to grind the anti-US axe with those of us here from
the US. So does Ozzy. It seems to be their cyber recreational pleasure
of late. And we'd be remiss if we didn't call them on it--hell, they'd
find no pleasure at all in a one-sided diatribe with no opposition. So
in my own way I'm making it possible for you, Moroon and Ozzy to enjoy
your time on ASA. You can thank me now or later.

Max.... if you consider getting fingerprinted merely an inconvenience...
we just have to agree to disagree. I can supply security documentation and
references... but this is not adequate to satisfy the US Customs. If I
view their requirements as beyond that which I am willing to provide....
how can you state that as anti American? Does my personal decision offend
your national pride? What makes you think I am short changing myself
because I refuse to comply with a ridiculous request?


I get fingerprinted every three years in order to obtain a firearms carry
permit. BFD--I have nothing to hide. It makes my fingers black and the
cleanup is a PITA, but hardly worth fretting over. It may be an
infringement on my privacy and personal freedom, but it is what I have to do
to accomplish my goal, so I do it without bitching. To refuse to do so
would mean that I am denied my permit to carry. That would affect me--not
those who have instigated the policies.

And no, you don't offend my national pride, or any such silly, fallacious
conclusion you may concoct, in the least. My point is simply that your
indignation is placing limits on your ability to move about the world. It
has no effect whatever upon me or my countrymen. You're more than welcome
to stand on your principles and avoid the US. We don't care in the
slightest.

I wouldn't travel to any country requiring that level of infringement on
my privacy and freedoms.

I guess, then, that you'll not be going anywhere a passport is necessary,
eh?

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message

I get fingerprinted every three years in order to obtain a firearms carry
permit. BFD--I have nothing to hide. It makes my fingers black and the
cleanup is a PITA, but hardly worth fretting over. It may be an
infringement on my privacy and personal freedom, but it is what I have to
do to accomplish my goal, so I do it without bitching. To refuse to do so
would mean that I am denied my permit to carry. That would affect me--not
those who have instigated the policies.

Good Grief!!... I have never been fingerprinted. I have a restricted weapons
permit, I have an airside access permit, I have a clean record..... having
something to hide isn't the issue here Max..... having information about me
stored within a system as displayed by the US government is. I have the
option not to have that information gathered. Despite our idiotic gunlaws in
Canada.... I don't require a retinal scan nor fingerprinting to obtain
restricted weapons permit.

I'm not chosing to become a global hermit here... nor am I electing to hide
within the masses by compliance. I am merely defining the limits of what I
find acceptable to provide.


And no, you don't offend my national pride, or any such silly, fallacious
conclusion you may concoct, in the least. My point is simply that your
indignation is placing limits on your ability to move about the world. It
has no effect whatever upon me or my countrymen. You're more than welcome
to stand on your principles and avoid the US. We don't care in the
slightest.

Bull****.... it's obvious it offends you. It's not indignation on my part
Max.... it's merely refusal to comply with ridiculous demands. We are all
limited as to our ability to "move about the world"... make no mistake
regarding that fact. Nonetheless... my not having access to the USA in no
way impedes my ability to travel to the remaining 80% of the countries on
this planet that are available to me.
....and Max, I most certainly will stand on my principals.

I guess, then, that you'll not be going anywhere a passport is necessary,
eh?

You're suffering a brain fart there aren't you Max.... I have a passport
and can travel to the majority of the countries on this planet.... which
do not require retinal scans and fingerprinting. I currently have an EEC
Passport, microchipped and a Canadian Permanent Resident Card as well as 2
entry visas to the USA labelled " permanent.indefinite for business or
pleasure" . I'm welcome almost everywhere I choose to go.

CM

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message
news:is%Lf.5313$M52.51@edtnps89...

"Maxprop" wrote in message

I get fingerprinted every three years in order to obtain a firearms carry
permit. BFD--I have nothing to hide. It makes my fingers black and the
cleanup is a PITA, but hardly worth fretting over. It may be an
infringement on my privacy and personal freedom, but it is what I have to
do to accomplish my goal, so I do it without bitching. To refuse to do
so would mean that I am denied my permit to carry. That would affect
me--not those who have instigated the policies.

Good Grief!!... I have never been fingerprinted. I have a restricted
weapons permit, I have an airside access permit, I have a clean
record..... having something to hide isn't the issue here Max.....
having information about me stored within a system as displayed by the US
government is. I have the option not to have that information gathered.
Despite our idiotic gunlaws in Canada.... I don't require a retinal scan
nor fingerprinting to obtain restricted weapons permit.

A complete set of my prints have been on file with the local, state, and
fedral government for decades. And they've never been used for anything. I
have nothing to hide, and as long as that remains the case, that info just
sits there, full of no sound or fury, signifying nothing. You are truly
paranoid. Do you honestly believe that your prints and retinal scans will
be lying one someone's desktop and pulled up now and then and examined?
"Hmm, John, look here at this Mooron fellow. These prints looks awfully
suspicious. Maybe we'd better do some further investigating of this guy. I
think he may be al Qaeda . . ." In fact any prints taken at the US/Canadian
border will end up in an archive, lost and buried. Most won't even get put
on the fingerprint database servers at the FBI, there will simply be too
many of them.

And no, you don't offend my national pride, or any such silly, fallacious
conclusion you may concoct, in the least. My point is simply that your
indignation is placing limits on your ability to move about the world.
It has no effect whatever upon me or my countrymen. You're more than
welcome to stand on your principles and avoid the US. We don't care in
the slightest.

Bull****.... it's obvious it offends you.

Not in the least. I couldn't care less. This entire debate has been a
mildly amusing entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. To believe
otherwise would be arrogant of you--and you certainly don't want to be
viewed as arrogant, now do you? Fact is, Mooron, only you and Ozzy can
debate with something resembling intelligence and cogent arguments. This is
recreation only. Sorry if I've offended you buy informing you that I really
don't give a rat's posterior if you choose to stand on the border and ****
on our country.

It's not indignation on my part Max.... it's merely refusal to comply with
ridiculous demands.

That would actually suffice as a reasonable definition of indignation.

We are all limited as to our ability to "move about the world"... make no
mistake regarding that fact. Nonetheless... my not having access to the
USA in no way impedes my ability to travel to the remaining 80% of the
countries on this planet that are available to me.
...and Max, I most certainly will stand on my principals.

Good for you, Mooron. Everyone has a right to righteous indignation. Even
you.

I guess, then, that you'll not be going anywhere a passport is necessary,
eh?

You're suffering a brain fart there aren't you Max.... I have a passport
and can travel to the majority of the countries on this planet....
which do not require retinal scans and fingerprinting.

Since most countries eventually and ultimately emulate the security
procedures instituted in the US, you may discover fewer and fewer countries
where such identity records aren't accumulated. You may just achieve that
isolationist status yet.

I currently have an EEC Passport, microchipped and a Canadian Permanent
Resident Card as well as 2 entry visas to the USA labelled "
permanent.indefinite for business or pleasure" . I'm welcome almost
everywhere I choose to go.

I hear Damascus is lovely this time of year. g

Max