Robert Broady said:

Chances are excellent that your "American made" sails were cut and
stitched here out of materials made in another country.


Dupont...American Company

You must be thinking about your French boat.

Joe

This is a key moment in defining the values of Bobspirt.


Yup, patriotism and loyalty are to be earned. Or as Peter Hastings on
BBR said today, "The American car buyer has finally had enough of what
has amounted to abuse of their loyalty to the US builders."
He then went on to say that DESIGN was the key area of failure for the
US builders, pointing out that Nissan and Honda won the truck market in
just 24 months with superior concepts.
Not a single US built SUV can match my Tribeca at ANY price, or even a
Honda Pilot for that matter and that's not even full time AWD!!!

RB
35s5
NY

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:27:06 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

It is truly American to buy the best product available for your money,
regardless of where it came from. That's capitalism and freedom!

Anything else is tribalistic jingoism.

Amen!

Agreed.

As one who ran manufacturing operations and is now unemployed as a
result of globalizaition, I have strong feelings on the subject.

Open competition is good. The consumer should be given a choice
between quality and cost and determine what value means to him.
Problem is, todays CEO's are taking away that choice.

I had the last domestic operation in my industry and the most
repected product. My product cost approximately 15% more than the
competition which was all Chinese and of questionable quality. My
business was growing because many continued to make the choice for
quality. Corporate decision to consolidate my location and outsource
about 70 percent of my business to China shut me down. It was pure
greed coupled with junior achievement management. I was making money
and growing but it is like the goose that was laying the golden egg.
Lets kill the goose and see where the gold is.

The results of this brilliant strategy. Sales are lower, profits are
lower, that reputation that had been maintained for 75 years is fading
at a rapid pace, 350 good people are out of work, the consumer of the
product has no choice but to accept poor quality because that is all
there is. The Chinese in this type of manufacture use processes that
were used in the '40s and '50s in the U. S. Batch manufacturing with
lots of set up breaks going from one junk machine to another. Casting
processes with individuals compacting sand by stomping on it in the
molds.

The brilliant strategists - when it became apparent what they had
done, sold the group and are still there to wreak havoc again.

The Japanese car makers competed honestly, basing their process on
Demming's, an American, system of statistical process control. Demming
went to the U. S. companies first and got laughed out of their
offices.Today, most U. S. Companies have adopted similar systems.
The Japs forced this and that was a good thing. U. S. cars are better
by far today than they were 25 years ago. The Chinese are bringing
nothing to the table but indentured servitude labor. A communist
Country that only takes care of the rich brokers who get the advantage
of that cheap labor.

My $.02 worth

Frank

Not a single US built SUV can match my Tribeca at ANY price


why fer gawds sake would they want to. It's Ugly, has no leg room, is
over priced and has poor preformance.

You should have bought a nice Chevy Suburban like all the other house
wifes.


Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
ups.com...
Everything America leads the world requires the workforce be highly
education.

You mean highly educated right?

No, education.


Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?

As long as they stay in factory jobs.

Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.

Engineers in the US don't make 150K with either a PhD or Masters. In fact,
engineers salaries remain pretty flat after 5 years. So what are these high
tech products? What is the software?

It's not a question of pay. It's a question of productivity. If I pay an
engineer in China 30K and he produces 1M$ of value, and I pay a US engineer
150K and he produces 2M$ of value, which engineer provides the most
production? Which engineer provides the greatest return on investment? Which
is the better engineer to hire?



keep the commies stupid.


I'm not worried at all. America will always be first in the hardest,
most
sophisticated industrial arenas.

Until all of our bright kids are working at Home-Depot or Burger King
because they can not find work here.

There's plenty of work for bright kids. Smart lawyers do well, the medical
field is going gang busters. There are too many engineers in this country.
We could use about 1/3 - 1/2 as many. Why is it that everyone believes smart
kids should study science and math? All the smart kids I know that studied
science and math and are now grown up are telling their kids to avoid
engineering and science careers.



Why? Because bean counting became priorty over making sure we remainded
the leader by training and fostering design and engineering here.

What is so important about fostering design and engineering here in the US?
If it is important, increase the pay for engineers. The high paying jobs are
in finance and lawyering. Good God, entry level nurses make more than
engineers with a decade of experience.

It's
not just grunt labor anymore Bob.

Engineers are treated like grunt labor. Layoffs every few years, abuse of
overtime (60-80 hour work weeks), reduction in benefits, no continuing
education, if you are over 35 you are toast. The IT guys have it even worse.

Look at America's highest paid groups:

Movie stars/ entertainers: generally high school education, only Bill Cosby
has PhD.

Athletes: college educated, usually in some goof ball major.

Corporate CEO's : some are educated, Bill Gates did not finish college.
Education is not really a factor.

So why would someone who is smart want to work so hard for relatively so
little? An experienced engineer may make 1.5 - 2 times what the UPS guy
makes with no overtime pay and work 60 hours/week. An
entertainer/athlete/CEO makes 10-500 times what an engineer makes for the
same work hours.

America needs less engineers and scientists.


Joe

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:27:06 GMT, "Bob Crantz"
wrote:

It is truly American to buy the best product available for your money,
regardless of where it came from. That's capitalism and freedom!

Anything else is tribalistic jingoism.

Amen!

Agreed.

As one who ran manufacturing operations and is now unemployed as a
result of globalizaition, I have strong feelings on the subject.

Open competition is good. The consumer should be given a choice
between quality and cost and determine what value means to him.
Problem is, todays CEO's are taking away that choice.

I had the last domestic operation in my industry and the most
repected product. My product cost approximately 15% more than the
competition which was all Chinese and of questionable quality. My
business was growing because many continued to make the choice for
quality. Corporate decision to consolidate my location and outsource
about 70 percent of my business to China shut me down. It was pure
greed coupled with junior achievement management. I was making money
and growing but it is like the goose that was laying the golden egg.
Lets kill the goose and see where the gold is.

The results of this brilliant strategy. Sales are lower, profits are
lower, that reputation that had been maintained for 75 years is fading
at a rapid pace, 350 good people are out of work, the consumer of the
product has no choice but to accept poor quality because that is all
there is. The Chinese in this type of manufacture use processes that
were used in the '40s and '50s in the U. S. Batch manufacturing with
lots of set up breaks going from one junk machine to another. Casting
processes with individuals compacting sand by stomping on it in the
molds.

The brilliant strategists - when it became apparent what they had
done, sold the group and are still there to wreak havoc again.

The Japanese car makers competed honestly, basing their process on
Demming's, an American, system of statistical process control. Demming
went to the U. S. companies first and got laughed out of their
offices.Today, most U. S. Companies have adopted similar systems.
The Japs forced this and that was a good thing. U. S. cars are better
by far today than they were 25 years ago. The Chinese are bringing
nothing to the table but indentured servitude labor. A communist
Country that only takes care of the rich brokers who get the advantage
of that cheap labor.

My $.02 worth

Frank


Well said, especially about junior achievement management.

Here Here, Just 1 hour ago Dana announced they will have to lay off
800 Canooks. They musta made crappy stuff...no one wanted to buy.

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...A-JOBS-COL.XML

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here Here, Just 1 hour ago Dana announced they will have to lay off
800 Canooks. They musta made crappy stuff...no one wanted to buy.


http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...A-JOBS-COL.XML


Do you realize how many people making buggy whips were laid off when the
automobile became mass produced?

All of the coal shovelers out of work because of the diesel locomotive?

All of those out of work because of the invention of the knitting machine?

The demise of ocean travel industry because of reliable airplanes?

Say it ain't so Joe!

So your saying axles are now obsolete?

Joe

Education drives unions and low skilled labor away. Send jobs for
the ignorant to China

Right , you think the Chinese are stupid and un-educated?


Bob Crantz wrote:
As long as they stay in factory jobs.


Not everybody in China works in a factory!


Your in for a rude awakening, I know of many high tech products being
designed on US software by Chinese optical engineers in china for US
made products. Why pay a Phd or Master's degreed engineer here 150K
when you can find one in China for 30K.


The only postgrad engineers I know of making $150K are ones
on the Board of Directors of the companies they work for.

Joe, you're dreaming again.


Engineers in the US don't make 150K with either a PhD or Masters. In fact,
engineers salaries remain pretty flat after 5 years. So what are these high
tech products? What is the software?

I'd like to know, too.
I know a number of Chinese engineers who are moving back to
China because they can make more money there.





Look at America's highest paid groups:

Movie stars/ entertainers: generally high school education, only Bill Cosby
has PhD.

Athletes: college educated, usually in some goof ball major.

Corporate CEO's : some are educated, Bill Gates did not finish college.
Education is not really a factor.

So why would someone who is smart want to work so hard for relatively so
little? An experienced engineer may make 1.5 - 2 times what the UPS guy
makes with no overtime pay and work 60 hours/week. An
entertainer/athlete/CEO makes 10-500 times what an engineer makes for the
same work hours.

America needs less engineers and scientists.

Hmmm, an interesting conclusion.

DSK