Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"

Defining "performance" strictly as pointing ability may be of some
value to a round-the-buoys racer, but is meaningless for almost all
other sailors. I just posted the polars for two well known "high
performance" racers, which show that while they may be to achieve very
small angles, the VMG at 45 degrees is almost as good, if not better,
especially in light air. If this is true for a C&C 99, why would the
owner of the Cat 42 who doesn't race give rat's ass if his boat
"falters" at 40 degrees?

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose. Thus, a round-the-buoys racer has to point well to
be considered "high performance." A cruiser has to do other things
well, including providing a stable, comfortable environment; well
ventilated; allowing basic living functions to continue while
underway; provide a comfortable home away from home, regardless of the
destination, plus many other attributes. A "racer/cruiser" should do
both well; if it doesn't, it can't be considered "high performance."

Further, to perform well, a boat should be used for its intended
purpose. In my opinion, a racer that is never raced, or a cruiser
that is never cruised is not a high performance boat regardless of its
pedigree. A fine philosophical point, perhaps, but someone who never
races has no credibility to claim the "best performing racer"
regardless of how the term is defined.

So maybe you have the "best performing flat water day sailer" in the
group, Bob. Congrats.


Capt. Rob wrote:
What constitutes performance in a sailboat design is a common point of
dissension among sailors. Let's cut to the chase. A 40 foot vessel that
sails at 10 knots on a reach, but falters at 40 degrees true is not a
great performing boat in spite of it's formidable downwind ability.
From the perspective of a designer and sailor, performance equates to
the widest range of directional velocity or VMG. In short; the higher
pointing hull is superior regardless of speed or size. A small racer
like a J24 is a better performing boat than a Catalina 42. Does this
mean the J24 is faster. Perhaps at times and in certain conditions, but
the Catalina 42 LWL will prove to be too much for the J24 off the wind.
No matter, the J24 is the better performing boat. Let's try an
off-the-wall example...a Mazda Miata vs. a Ford Crown Victoria. The
Crown Vic, used by police is a big fairly fast car. It's faster than
the Miata and can hold high speeds longer with less driver fatigue. But
the Miata is a better performing car. It's responsive
transmission/engine, fine balance and suspension make it able to turn
faster and return generous feedback to the wheel and brakes. The faster
car is not the better performing car in all cases. Performance is not
all about speed...with cars or boats.
And so it is with sailboats. A J24 is a better performing boat than a
C&C 32, in spite of the fact that the C&C is faster in many situations.
The only other true performance boats on this list are Loco's and
Donal's. You can cry and wine all day and night about it. Jeff can
claim his boat goes 200 knots downwind. Mooron can claim his boat would
fare better over 2000 miles of reaching through tsunamis. Neal can
claim he'll fly a 344% genoa generating an S/AD of 77.9. It doesn't
matter. You can all claim my interior is not suited for Atlantic
crossings. It wasn't bought for that. You can jump up and down that
she'll be uncomfortable in 10 foot swells. We won't take Thomas into
that any time soon.
We bought the best boat for our needs and conditions. What angers so
many folks here is that our choice just happens to easily eclipse
there's and that's more than they can handle.
We simply have the nicest boat here...and the best performing one as
well.

(Yes. I stole the opening from a certain book on racing. So what? It
only afirms my point.)

Capt. Robert B
35s5
NY

Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?
Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it. Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind. Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs. You
enter as many qualifications as you want but the basic facts are not
altered.
You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....man, I sure gotta get me one of those!


RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it. In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't run
DDW.

Fin Keeler!

CM

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

Your boat is a turtle downwind in light air [5-15kts] and you know it.
In
heavier air you need to broad reach because your squirrelly boat can't
run
DDW.


Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. I already
sailed it downwind in 20 knots and it was cooking. I guess I just have
the knack. (Actually the owner was on board showing me). You don't even
know enough about boats to know why her design is tricky
downwind....HINT...it aint about be squirrely. She tracks great in
fact. So try again!

John, we clearly don't agree on the 35s5. She gets a bit flustered
downwind, but that's when skill is supposed to take over! We've had her
over 12 knots more times than I can count. We agree on the upwind
balance, fin or wing she's really amazing.

Robert, congratulations on the 35s5. We've had our for 8 years
running
and the boat has been practically bullet proof. We sail her hard and
have had surfing at 15 knots. Upwind we are right there with the J105's

and other racers. I don't agree with John about downwind being tricky.
We're just about untouchable downwind, though I admit upwind is the
boat's forte, making 7 knots at 33 degrees with ease. That's slightly
better than the polars Karen sent, but remember that sails are much
better now and we spent a lot on ours!

Snap into a slim jim!

RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Nonsense. I've already posted from 35s5 owners who've simply stated
that the 35s5 requires some experience to be fast downwind. [snip the Yada
Yada Yada]

Yeah! Sure Bob!... talk to the Hand! ...Talk to the Hand!

Your boat is a Slug downwind!

CM

Capt. Rob wrote:

However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,

What, it sails well on port tack *and* starboard tack?? Wow!


--
Capt Scumbalino

Nice troll, Boobie, especially quoting a presumably "famous" book
without attribution. Thus, if anyone contradicts anything, you can
jump in say, "So you think so-and-so doesn't know what he's talking
about?"


Thanks, Jeff. But I'll tell you the truth...since we've had some fun
and actually generated some interesting sailing talk. It's not from a
book at all. I made that up just to keep certain folk at bay. Worked
like a charm! Or did it?


RB
35s5
NY

I believe he means "all points of sail". But you
know, sailing ability was never his strong suit.
S.

"Capt. Scumbalino"
wrote in message
. ..
: Capt. Rob wrote:
:
: However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
:
: What, it sails well on port tack *and* starboard
tack?? Wow!
:
:
: --
: Capt Scumbalino
:
:

11. NotPony
Nov 12, 7:46 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.sailing.asa
I believe he means "all points of sail". But you
know, sailing ability was never his strong suit.
S.


I guess he meant "terminology" but you know basic English was never his
strong suit!


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Performance is truly defined as how well something fulfills its
intended purpose.


Oh, I guess that means that if the guy with the Island Packet 35 feels
his boat performs great within his goals, then that's good performance?

Certainly. Its a great performing cruiser!

Sorry, Jeff, making up your own definition for sailing performance
won't cut it.

Sorry Bob, you're the one making up a definition. Performance is
"fulfilling the intended purpose." Look it up.

Your boat sails poorly in light air, is tedious to tack
(your own) words and is weak upwind.

And yet, it will go upwind faster than your boat in a breeze.

Even compared to newer cats it's
still not a good performer. However, my 35s5 sails well on all tacks,
goes upwind, tacks on a dime and is able to work in light air and is
still considered a good performer against more modern designs.

yada yada yada. It might mean something if you raced it.

You enter as many qualifications as you want but the
basic facts are not altered.

Right. You bought a "racer/cruiser" that might be a good racer but is
a below average cruiser. Given that its hard to call it a "great
performer." Buts its no matter, you don't race and you don't cruise,
so I guess that makes you a "poor performer."

You own a cruising boat that does well off the wind, tacks badly, can't
sail well in light air, can't point, has a numb helm....all by your own
admission now less....

I own a cruising boat that can handle any conditions I'm likely to
encounter on the East Coast. It can go upwind as fast as your boat
and it flies off the wind; all with a small rig that can be
singlehanded. It has three staterooms, two with queen size bunks, all
with great ventilation, standing room and plenty of lockers. A head
and shower that you can actually use underway. A galley bigger than
many apartments have, big enough to cook a Thanksgiving dinner for
eight, who can be served in the saloon. No A/C because it don't need it.

I carry a dinghy on davits and a kayak on deck. A cockpit that 8
people can stretch out on, a foredeck made for sunbathing. I can do
100 miles and arrive for dinner refreshed. The boat is even unsinkable!

This boat has taken us from Toronto to Maine to Key West and back.
We've lived on board close to 600 nights, and still use it more than
half the summer. We're planning a trip to Newfoundland that will take
three summers to complete.

So I ask the assembled masses: which boat has or will best fulfill its
intended purpose, or putting it more simply, is the best performer:
Boobie's Bendy, or my PDQ?